So I was loading some Woodleigh jacketed BPE bullets last night and for some reason get loose neck tension with these bullets and the dies I have.
I am using H4198 and a backer rod filler.
After a few years of measuring and cutting the backer rod to length, I changed my technique by simply inserting the foam rod into the case and trimming it flush with the case mouth allowing the bullet to compress it lightly as it is seated.
This has worked just fine for me using cast and PP bullets sized to fit fired cases but even slightly neck sized I am just not getting enough tension with these jacketed bullets.
This brass was fired in my Alex Henry which has big chambers as many of his rifles do.

So, having read about establishing a proper OAL for every bullet and also a bunch about breech seating I am wondering if this little "problem" may be a benefit in another sense.

The backer rod does give enough spring back to push the bullet back out toward the case mouth and would certainly do that in an unsized case.
I shoot mostly single shots so my thought is that this could possibly be a way to always have your bullet ogive against the lands while also keeping light pressure against the reduced load of powder. The chamber would be well sealed by using unsized brass.
To my mind, it would be much like breech seating but with the base of the bullet in the case mouth rather than leaving a gap between the case and the bullet base.

Is this a dopey idea?
Are there any hidden dangers I am not appreciating?
In this rifle, I can see potential for bullet tilt but in a tighter chamber I think that would be mitigated.



Click the picture below to see a little video.

Idea is valid, but if you are not controlling your fouling will interfere with the bullet at the throat. Remember that many of the original Sharps cartridges and many others of the era, were barely seated into the case.
Your idea is like breech seating the bullet separately, only not separately.
OH, now I see you are using 4198; no this is not a good idea; this is only for black powder. that fills the case.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:

Your idea is like breech seating the bullet separately, only not separately.
OH, now I see you are using 4198; no this is not a good idea; this is only for black powder. that fills the case.

What do you see that makes this a bad move?
I know traditional breechseating is done using black powder but even with 4198 how is this fundamentally any different than using the same powder charge for 3" and 3-1/4" cases in the 500 for example.
I don't see that the bullet would ever be entirely out of the case, just not held in with neck tension.

It will work. I just don't like using smokeless powder in BPE rifles. The possible issue is that the bullet can be pushed down into the case, increasing pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
It will work. I just don't like using smokeless powder in BPE rifles. The possible issue is that the bullet can be pushed down into the case, increasing pressure.

+1

Why don't you just order a custom Lee factory crimp die?

http://leeprecision.com/custom...rimp-die-thread.html

All they need is a dummy cartridge and $25. That way you'll be able to keep all your fingers.

Guys, this is a perfectly safe NfB load and if I used a crimp die, the bullet would inherently be deeper or at the longest exactly the same depth into the case if it were made to allow this bullet to touch the lands.

I'm just thinking that a loose yet centered bullet gently held against the lands while at the same time keeping the charge down at the primer could be of value.
No jump to the lands as long as the bullet is long enough to both touch the lands and have some of the base in the case mouth.

As you can see in the video, there is no way for the bullet to drop deeper into the case.

Ok, looks like you have already made the decision, so go for it.

So, you don't worry about the bullets falling out because you plan to load them and then gingerly
carry them to where you are going to shoot them and then hold the bullets in with your finger until they are chambered?

I'd still crimp. Things expand, things contract, things settle. and you don't want your bullets falling out.

Of course, if 25 bucks is too steep.......

Large chambers produce fired brass with a large neck diameter, when UNSIZED.

In other words, the base of the bullet will not be centered in the case or chamber. I would guess poor accuracy??

The inside diameter of the fired brass neck is important. High pressure will expand the neck fully to the chamber. Loose bullet fit.

Low pressure will just push the bullet out of the case on firing, the neck will NOT expand fully to the chamber. This is if brass neck was sized first.

Not expanding the neck on firing is great for accuracy. Better bullet alignment with the bore.

Over all, i am not sure your method is safe, with jacketed bullets ??? Good luck.

H4198. Smokeless powder needs pressure to burn correctly. Unsized brass with bullet jam may or may not produce enough pressure??

Place some H4198 and black powder in open air. Light it, see difference in burn rate.

Make sure bullet exits barrel after every shot.

I am sure you already know this.

Black powder burn rate compared to any smokeless; well, there is no comparison. Ok, here is a comparison; gasoline compared to rocks.

The bullets in question are Woodleigh sifts for black powder loads so not a hard jacketed bullet.
NfB reloaders use 4198 a lot and often with very little or no neck tension or crimping.
I (and many others)have used it quite a bit with PP bullets and backer rod filler with good results. I don't know how much pressure 4198 needs to perform efficiently or if the bullet weight and fit in the bore is all that is needed to create that pressure or if a crimp or tight neck change anything.
I'm not jumping feet first into this experiment but, rather, just curious if this could have any use in general.
My gun is just one example of where the desire to use a jacketed bullet of a standard diameter is a trade off. The bullet neck will be small for the chamber if you want a firm neck tension.
Ideally, the neck should be a good fit to the chamber and the bullet a good fit to the neck but in most old guns, that is not going to happen unless you cast and size or patch to that ideal size.
I was just wondering if this could be a method to render that lack of neck tension less problematic.

Not sure of the cartridge or FL die being use?

But a straight walled case or slight tapered one may be "neck sized". This lets the unsized part of the brass better fit the chamber and still provide neck tension.

I learned this from RCBS when loading handgun rounds with carbide die. Just size to where the base of the bullet stop in the case.

This may not apply to your cartridge??

Your method using unsized fired brass, with bullet into the rifling may work very well for alignment. Neat how the filler works. Interesting project. Let us know how it turns out.

Variation of muzzle velocity is probably the biggest challenge you will face with your plan. 4198 does light up well but undersized jacketed bullets sitting against lands are not he Same as plus .002 cast bullets hard into the lands. Start pressure is still important. Run 50 of those loads over a chron and you will know the answer to your question with your equipment.

Hmmm, yes, bad idea.