After much research, a good bit of personal experience a few different powder measures, it seems that the general consensus is that the best way to get a uniform charge is to (generaly speaking) ;

A) use ball powders, or

b) drop a light charge and then trickle up.

Is this the same conclusion that most folks have come to and if not, how do you do it?

The best SD I can seem to achieve without either one of the two above methods is basicaly unacceptable to me. (Variations in extruded powders notwithstanding, some meter pretty well). A chrony can be a real eye opener. But I dont like trickling, nor do I like temp insensitive powders. I have a Lee Powder measure and a Lyman 55 and dont expect any other measure will show much improvment. How do you deal with this cunudurum? What about the idea of forming a list of extruded powders that seem to meter well??

Also wondering if there is anyting to the claims that some Ramshot powders are less temperature sensitive?

Oh, and I know, there is an option c.

C) RCBS chargemaster.

How accurate are they?

There is another option; Don't worry about it and shoot. The game will never know the difference. You are overthinking it. Even if you get your charges all the same, you will still have velocity variations.

Maybe so. But even for "hunting conditions" there is never such a thing as too much accuracy. I find it to be a real asset.

Are you really shooting so much that you cannot take the time to weigh each charge?

The low standard deviations that you seek could be a product of several other issues than specifically variable powder charge weights. Such as neck tension, variable choices or mixed brass, less than optimal seating depth for your rifles barrel or improper powder selection for cartridge/bullet combination. The list goes on and on.

Define exactly what you seek as to precision/accuracy and then discover the steps needed to get there.

Good luck and good shooting.

I'm not sure I agree with that. There is a happy medium between one holers and pray and spray. I heard too many post where folks were splitting hairs over .25" accuracy to the point they were using target bullets. when, in fact, IMO, they'd be better off getting off the bench and stop angsting over a 1" group against a 1.25" group and start practicing more field position shooting.
As far as throwing an accurate charge, some powders do indeed meter better than others but the real basics is practice, practice, practice. Also, what precentage of the charge is the variation? With say a 30-06, a powder variation of 1gr isn't gonna amount to much; with a .222 a 1gr variance is quite a lot.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 308Sako:
Are you really shooting so much that you cannot take the time to weigh each charge?
QUOTE]
When you're loading up 1-1.5K cartridges for a Pdog shoot, you don't want to be weighing charges nor trickling up. Get you a good ball powder and verify every 10 charge and keep on trucking. If you're .2 or .4 or even .5grs off, the Pdogs will never know the difference.

I have and always will weigh every charge.

I see no reason not to. Reloading is not something that needs to be hurried up!

Is it really making a difference in group size? Probably not. However, I have the confidence in each and every load that I have done my part as consistently as possible.

I set my powder measure so it has to be dumped twice; two dumps of 30 to get approximately 60. If it a little under I trickle in more. If it is even a little over I dump some of it in the trickler and bring it up to dead on.

I load for 12 different calibers and sometimes load a several hundred at a time. Does it slow me down. Yep but it is time well spent and I enjoy that time!

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
Are you really shooting so much that you cannot take the time to weigh each charge?

I would just like to see what ideas others may have come up with. I meticulously resize, clean, inspect, trim, clean primer pockets, set up dies, use a single stage press. You get the picture. And I do enjoy it, but I also have a life besides reloading. I am not looking for one holers or .09 powder variation, just wondering if anyone else has any real world soloutions to get a little better powder charge with stick powders. Maybe there IS a powder measure I havent heard of that will git-er done..? I dont know.. Thats why Im asking. What about the idea of only using powders that meter well? Anyone else try that approach? We have a LOT of options there thesedays..

WesternHunter:

For hunting loads with stick powder, I'll weigh each one, but for high volume loading, I use fine powders, such as ball powders and just give a unifore throw of the RCBS leaver. I've actually found my old standard throw lever measure to be more consistant them my electronic measure when checked against a balance scale.

I will add my $.02 to this discussion by relating a very recent occurrence:

I had a 6 X 45 upper built the middle of last year. Because I work out of state we never got to actually check out the uppers to see how they would shoot and/or function until a couple of weeks ago. Regardless, I sat down at the progressive RCBS Piggyback and after necking up some 5.56 brass to 6mm, I chose an arbitrary load of Ramshot TAC, filled the primer drop tube, grabbed some 55-grain Nosler SHOTS bullets and proceeded to load ~200 prepped cases as "break-in" rounds; 100 per barrel. I chose an arbitrary seating depth as well, just one that I knew would feed from the mags.

Long story longer, after bore-sighting the rifles and getting them on paper, shots eight through 12 at 100 yards out of my upper were four into one ragged hole and one flyer, called at the shot.

So much for weighing charges, de-burring flash holes, etc. They may be necessary in a lot of instances, but not in this application!

If you use extrudes this measure will work wonders

http://www.quick-measure.com/

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
I've actually found my old standard throw lever measure to be more consistant them my electronic measure when checked against a balance scale.

That is informative! What brand throw lever measure do you use and what brand of electronic dispenser?

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
If you use extrudes this measure will work wonders

http://www.quick-measure.com/

I saw their webbsite Ol Joe. They look nice but are definatly spendy. By the time you add a few accesories you could have an electronic dispenser. Just how accurate are they with long stick powder? +-/.10 ??

quote:

There is another option; Don't worry about it and shoot. The game will never know the difference. You are overthinking it. Even if you get your charges all the same, you will still have velocity variations.

Ding! Ding! Ding!, We have a WINNER. A deer hit in the heart, regardless of whether the shot was perfectly centered or off to one side or a little low or a little high, if the bullet hits any part of the heart, the animal is going to die. KISS, there is only one degree of dead.

Western,
I weigh my extruded charges with an old AMT Auto Scale. It is basically two power tricklers (one fast and one slow) connected to a conventional Ohaus scale. Like any other Ohaus with the drum poise you can read it to .1 grains. Most of my charges are in the 45 grain range. If you load huge amounts of ammo or very large cartridges just use 2 of them.

The JDS Quick Measures are expensive. I bought one from the designer two months ago at a Spokane gun show. It does everything claimed. It is good enough that I sold my Belding and Mull measure and my one of my Redding measures. Once you get used to adjusting the powder tubes it is incredibly fast,easy, and ACCURATE. No cutting of stick powders, none. I still use a Redding for ball and flake powders because it works as fast. I have the old Pact/RCBS dispenser digital scale set up too. It was my go to for large charges of stick powders. It will get little use once I purchase the magnum powder tube from JDS.

I like to keep things very simple.I use a plastic spoon to charge my cases.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I like to keep things very simple.I use a plastic spoon to charge my cases.

That's funny. I usually just fill the case and scrape the excess off the top and cram in a bullet.
Seriously, what Wasbeeman said, for my hunting loads or anything else that will throw a charge of +-.1gr, I just fill up the Uniflow and weigh every 20th or so charge. The only powder that won't stay in that range that I have to trickle up to is IMR4831. Of course I don't shoot benchrest but for long range pistol, hunting or service rifle .1gr isn't going to make any difference. You can trickle if it makes you feel better though.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Western,
I weigh my extruded charges with an old AMT Auto Scale. It is basically two power tricklers (one fast and one slow) connected to a conventional Ohaus scale. Like any other Ohaus with the drum poise you can read it to .1 grains. Most of my charges are in the 45 grain range. If you load huge amounts of ammo or very large cartridges just use 2 of them.

Thats a new one on me. Saw one in a search and they look intresting. Pretty rare though.

I just goofed around a bit in the reloading room and found that basicaly any extruded powder, 4064, 4350, 3031, Rlr 19 and so on. They ALL varried about +/- .2 for on overall variation of about .4 grs, sometimes a little more. That was from my Lyman 55. Tapping, no tapping, doesnt matter, the variance is still there. I guess until I find a better measure I'll just have to trickle all extruded powders or live with sub standard charges.

Keep the suggestions coming though. Id like to know how the reddings, and RCBS measures compare to my findings..

i use the lyman dpms charger with a powder dump.
the crappy 25.00 second hand pacific does fine.
dump into the pan,put it on the scale,and push the button.
i'm seating a bullet while it is doing the work.
it's done about the time i have the bullet seated.

i use the electric measure for rl-19,4831 etc.

the ball powders,and real small stick stuff like h-322 never vary enough to bother with,so i just use the powder measures.
i have 6-7 different measures and they do seem to do better with different powders.
i have an old plastic lee that dumps imr 4198 like water,and an old rcbs that dumps unique like h-110.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I like to keep things very simple.I use a plastic spoon to charge my cases.

You mean those yeller plastic spoons a guy named Lee sells?? Hey, whatever works. It seems that a lot of people still do just do that and then trickle up on a scale. Would prolly take about the same amount of time as trickeling up after droping with a measure really. And less set up time.. Hmm.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
Thats a new one on me. Saw one in a search and they look intresting. Pretty rare though.

.

The AMT AutoScales were made for 10 or 15 years and then they were picked up and made by Lyman until 4 or 5 years ago.
They show up on Ebay pretty regularly.

You will find them in the dirt brown AMT color and Lyman in both the dirt brown and Lyman orange colors. I have about $75 in mine.

Just got my Handloader magazine and they have an article in it about powder measures and their accuracy. A general summary was that the average group size difference between thrown and weighed rounds was generally under .05" using a range of calibers from .257 Roberts up to 9.3x6.2.

The comments in the body of the article were that unless you are shooting beyond 500 yards or more you will not find any appreciable increase in accuracy as there are so many other factors that affect accuracy.

This made me think about why I weigh some of my rifle loads and what I wondered about is that if I'm on or beyond the upper limit of a load, then there might be a safety factor involved.

So apparently safety yes but accuracy no.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
A general summary was that the average group size difference between thrown and weighed rounds was generally under .05" using a range of calibers from .257 Roberts up to 9.3x6.2.

The comments in the body of the article were that unless you are shooting beyond 500 yards or more you will not find any appreciable increase in accuracy as there are so many other factors that affect accuracy.

I have a hard time swallowing that one. We all know that accuracy is a game of trial and error with various loads and rifles and there are a lot of different measures and powder combinations to deal with. I just saw that mine will vary as much as about 1/2 gn during a run of loadings. YMMV. But I would think that much could make a little difference @ 100 yds depending on the caliber and bullet, but a little becomes quite a bit more @ 300 yds. I take what the gun rags say with a grain of salt anymore. Most the time it seems like they are trying to push a product or their favorite chambering.

I use ball powder any time I can it meters very well.

I weigh the IMR powders because they do't meter well.

I think I only have two rifles that I use the IMR powders in now.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Organ:
The JDS Quick Measures are expensive. I bought one from the designer two months ago at a Spokane gun show. It does everything claimed. It is good enough that I sold my Belding and Mull measure

Ive read some very good reviews about the old B&M measures, I think that might be what Im looking for. How did you like yours for working with extruded powders? They look bullet proof. I'm guessing the entire hopper unit slides over the drop tube?

If it makes you happy to weigh every charge, by all means do so. However, you know that it does not mean you will get any better groups from your particular rifle. Once I saw a bench rest match that they do not weigh charges, I was convinced. And they were shooting into one ragged hole; the winner determined by some very small numbers.

I now only load powder by volume, checked by weight. I do this two ways; 1 I load through my Dillon RL 450B which has a powder slide and 2 using Lee dippers when I am doing something special that doesn't befit setting up the Dillon. I check volume against weight using a manual beam scale. I load most ball powder but also, AA2015, Varget, H4350, H4831SC, SR-4759. Normally my loads are not at the top of the safety range where a 1/2 grain too much would be a problem, so the normal +- .2 a measure gives is just fine. With ball powder, I doubt the Dillon slide is ever off that far. Millions of Pistol rounds are loaded on the Dillon type powder measures with loads of 4.1 or 5.2 etc. grains of powder being the selected load. If serious deviation was going on, we would have seen the problems many years ago.
On the Accuracy issue; all I can say is my Dillon, and Lee dippers for that matter, load far better than I can shoot.
Best regards,

nor do I like temp insensitive powders. I have a Lee Powder measure and a Lyman 55 and dont expect any other measure will show much improvment. How do you deal with this cunudurum?
I use a lyman autoscale, I have had it several years and mostly measure stick powders. with the speed adjustment I can set it up to repeat (+-).1 most of the time. I check the weight against a dillon electronic scale and I believe load consistency Is As good as any. Now on the other hand I use a lyman#55 powder measure for most all my pistol ammo and with very good consistency, I did a little test today after reading these post just to see. I threw a 100 charges of 2400 @ 17.1 grains and then dumped the powder from each case one at a time and reweighed the powder. I had 86 charges @ 17.1 grains, there were 11 @ 17grs and 3@ 17.2grs.
This is as good as I can do. no pun intended

Until recently, with the invention of compact, battery driven scales, the BR crowd used dippers similar to what you'd buy from Lee.
I watched a lady place 3rd in a BR match. She had a tupperwared bowl of powder. She would dredge the dipper through the powder, strike it off even with a credit card, and dump it in the case. I'm sure she'd done it many times but it does put the lie to the need to cut little logs of 4350 in half to get an accurate load.
If someone wants to make a life's work of prepping brass and weighing powder charges, go for it. I'd rather be shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
A general summary was that the average group size difference between thrown and weighed rounds was generally under .05" using a range of calibers from .257 Roberts up to 9.3x6.2.

The comments in the body of the article were that unless you are shooting beyond 500 yards or more you will not find any appreciable increase in accuracy as there are so many other factors that affect accuracy.

I have a hard time swallowing that one. We all know that accuracy is a game of trial and error with various loads and rifles and there are a lot of different measures and powder combinations to deal with. I just saw that mine will vary as much as about 1/2 gn during a run of loadings. YMMV. But I would think that much could make a little difference @ 100 yds depending on the caliber and bullet, but a little becomes quite a bit more @ 300 yds. I take what the gun rags say with a grain of salt anymore. Most the time it seems like they are trying to push a product or their favorite chambering.

Swallow hard. This article was a study with the results printed about how accuracy is effected by the difference between weighed and thrown powders for different calibers. Simple. When the study refers to the powder measures as Brand X and Brand Y, pray tell what are they pushing??? Have you read the article? I didn't think so. Here's a quote at the end of the article.

"Even with the log powders and magnum size charges, a good measure can throw charges varying less than one half of one percent. There is no reason for us to spend time weighing charges when quality mechanical measures result in equally fine accuracy for almost any handloading"

Again the question...what are they pushing???? Looking forward to the publication of your study. Sometimes facts are hard to swallow when they go against our long held opinions.

I am pretty anal about reloading only because I enjoy it and do a lot of unnecessary things frankly just for the hell of it.

I weigh all my charges on a Tanita jeweler's scale which goes +/- .05 gr.

I usually use a teaspoon to start off then a pair of tweezers to get my final charge (each kernel of powder will go the +/- .05gr). For pistol powders I use a pharmaceutical knife-spatula in lieu of the tweezers.

I also have used either a Harrel thrower or an RCBS dispenser to get just under my desired charge as well. But they're too much of a PITA to calibrate for just a few shells. And in my experience, neither are very accurate when weighed on the Tanita, but they're good to start off with/close enoughers.

I ain't in a rush and usually reload 20 or so shells at a time for hunting- I don't shoot paper.... . I just like the having the peace of mind (90%) between the ears.

I know a bit overboard, but WTF.....I truly don't think it really matters, but again I enjoy doing it.

I use a LEE Perfect Powder Measure.

It throws a very consistent charge and is easily adjusted.
For a Trickler, I use a Target Master
It's pricey and has to be order from the UK, but it works every time and removes all the effort of trickling powder. I am very glad I got it! I use it with my RCBS 5-0-5 beam scale.
Just my opine!

You didn't mention what you were loading, which does make a difference.....

For me, I like to use a Lee Auto Disk pro with the double-disk kit and rifle charging die whenever the case size/shape will allow it. They are cheap, but amazingly consistant and repeatable, especially with ball or short-grained powder. Maybe convienience has overtaken other things for me, but for cases up to .308 size this has been a terrific choice, especially with Ramshot powders. If you haven't tried them, I recommend it. They meter exceptionally well and are relatively temp insensitive.....as well as cleaner than other ball or flattened-ball powders.

I also use Hornady LNL powder measures (recommend the micrometer) and have a Redding BR powder measure....

I have found that having my powder measure give me the same, repeatable charge seems to be the most important factor in my loads. Of course, I always check them periodically with a good scale.

Any of these methods have proven more consistant than the nut behind the trigger, at least for me.

Cheers,

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I like to keep things very simple.I use a plastic spoon to charge my cases.

You mean those yeller plastic spoons a guy named Lee sells?? Hey, whatever works. It seems that a lot of people still do just do that and then trickle up on a scale. Would prolly take about the same amount of time as trickeling up after droping with a measure really. And less set up time.. Hmm.

The spoon drops the charge and does the trickling too.After doing it for years you get used to it and it goes fast.I have a powder trickler,tried it a few times and it has been stored away for years without use.

That Targetmaster does look cool.

But......................looks so 70s........the video made me chuckle......all it needs is some rubber hoses a Fresnel lens of some sorts and the obligatory foot squashing it.....and all for 3 payments of $19.99....but wait you get more........an autographed pic of Graham Chapman, John Cleese, Terry Gilliam, Eric Idle, Terry Jones & Michael Palin......

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
I've actually found my old standard throw lever measure to be more consistant them my electronic measure when checked against a balance scale.

That is informative! What brand throw lever measure do you use and what brand of electronic dispenser?

I have an old RCBS throw lever powder measure, and a Lyman 1000 electronic scale.

With ball powder, there is no comparrison between the two. The electronic will wander a bit, but the old mechanical will remain dead on.

I have three measures, and old Lyman, A RCBS and a Harrell's. I never trickle any more. I like and try to use ball powders when they fit my needs. I find AA powder cans outnumber the rest on my shelf. I have found a baffle in my measure improves repeatability drastically.

I also have developed a habit of repeating how I move the handle every time. IE, up and tap twice, down and tap twice. Doing it the same every time seems to help too.