Bought myself a Norinco version of Tokarev pistol. The gun is brand new with a very good price. Basically I don't like to shoot surplus ammo because most are corrosive, and I must buy a crate per purchase.

Anyone knows where I can find reloading dies for this caliber (7.62X25 Russian Tokarev). What bullets should I use to get a good result?

Thanks in advance.

Lee makes steel dies for the bottleneck pistol cartridge.

"Accurate Load Book Number Two" has loads up to 1900 fps from a CZ52 with 85 gr FMJ bullets and Starline brass only.

Despite what the best load book on the subject says or faills to say, Tokarevs are much stronger than CZ52s and S&B brass is better than Starline.

My test data says that CZ52 split the barrel at 17% over max book, Starline brass gives up the primer in a Tokarev pistol at 27% over, and S&B brass gives up the primer at 31% over max book with 110 gr bullets and AA#9 powder.

I have only tried; 86 gr, 110 gr, AA#5, AA#9, and H110 in 7.62x25.

H110 fills the case too fast in 85 gr, but may work better in 110 gr.
AA#9 can produce awsome velocities in 85 or 110 gr.

I have CZ-52 many years. When reloading data was not aviable, I wrote to Accurate Arms for data. They told me that CZ-52 is much stronger than TT or its copies. Yes, there is load with no 9 and 85 grain bullets for CZ-52, but this 1900fps is from 15" barrel, from CZ-52 is it something over 1600fps . . .

Jiri,
Do have it in writing from AA that CZ52s are stronger than Tokarevs?

Because I would like to nail them on that.

I have a letter an a load book that both say, "We feel that the maximum loads shown here are suitable for the CZ52 so long as the firearm is in good condition. Other models of foreign handguns of lessor quality should probably be loaded in a more cautious manner." From that we may INFER that the Tokarev T33 design is weaker, but I can not catch them in being outright wrong. Obviously they have never done proof loads in the CZ52 design.

I got a form letter on March 20, 2000 from Ted Curtis at AA on the 7.62x25mm loads he had been developing prior to publishing the load book "Accurate Arms Number Two" in 2000. The letter has many of the same lines as the load book like, "The pressure data shown here was developed in a 9" pressure barrel. We then fired the same loads through an issue CZ-52 to record the velocities."

In the letter, but not the load book is, "In determining the appropriate pressure limit for our load data we tested various military ammo from China, Russia, Austria, Bulgaria, and the Czech Republic. Commercial ammo produced by Sellier and Berloit was also tested. Based on these tests results we arrived at maximum pressure for our load data of 42,000 cup."

If I could engage AA in any way, I would ask them, "What pistol do you think those countries were loading for?"

I have done destructive tests on countless guns in 23 calibers, and nothing else comes close to the poor safety margin of the CZ52 design. Not only does it spontaneously blow up, but it sends the extractor pieces to the right at lethal velocities. I have seen the extractor go through two pieces of wood and dent sheet metal. I think it is folly to stand on the right side of anyone shooting a CZ52.

I have half a dozen CZ52s AND Tokarevs. I have done stress testing for
safety margin. I have calculated the barrel hoop stress in both.
Of many possible failures, I am interested in this because of the CZ52s
vulnerability to this failure.

How to tell which can handle more pressure: CZ52 or Tokarev:

Measure the OD of the barrel in a CZ52 at the chamber:.590"
Measure the OD of the barrel in a Tokarev at the chamber:.640"
Measure the OD of the barrel in a CZ52 on the barrel:.468"
Measure the OD of the barrel in a Tokarev on the barrel:.494"

The Chamber ID is .390" and the grooves ID is .308" for the 7.62x25mm
Tokarev cartridge.

This makes the walls in the chamber of a CZ52 .1" thick
This makes the walls in the chamber of a Tokarev .125" thick
This makes the walls in the barrel of a CZ52 .08" thick
This makes the walls in the barrel of a Tokarev .093" thick

The formula for thin wall hoop stress is S=[chamber
Pressure][ID]/2[thickness of walls]

Assume 4140 steel heat treated.

If heat commercially treated and quenched 4140 steel has an ultimate
maximum tension yield strength of 180ksi,
http://et.nmsu.edu/~etti/winter99/manufacturing/kollmer/kollmer.html
Then the max chamber pressure for a CZ52 may be calculated:
Pmax[CZ52]ch = S[2][thickness or walls]/[ID]= 180ksi
[2][.1"]/.390"=92,000 psi
Pmax[Tok]ch= 180ksi[2][.125"]/.39"= 115,000 psi

This must be added to the pressure capacity of the brass:
Pbrass = S[2][thickness or walls]/[ID]= 66ksi [2][.035]/[.39
-(2).035]=14kpsi

The CZ52 chamber would then fail at 106,000 psi
The Tokarev chamber would then fail at 129,000 psi

Pmax[CZ52]barrel= S[2][thickness or walls]/[ID]=
180ksi[2][.08"]/.308"=94kpsi
Pmax[Tok]barrel= S[2][thickness or walls]/[ID]= 180ksi[2][.093"]/.308"=
109kpsi

It looks like the barrels are weaker than the chambers.
It looks like the CZ52s are weaker than the Tokarevs.

The 42,000 cup in a CZ52 has 14% safety margin by my experiments.

11.7 gr AA#9 makes a 110 gr FMJ bullet go 1688 fps in a CZ52 "Accurate
load book #2" 42,000 cup.

13.7 gr AA#9 and a 110 gr FMJ bullet will blow up a CZ52 barrel and take
the slide with it.

15.3 gr AA#9 and 110 gr FMJ bullet will make the primer fall out in a
Tokarev.

I knew a guy who threw away the Tokarevs he got from Viet Cong bodies as
the workmanship was not good. He bought 3 CZ52s from me.

I was enthralled with CZ52s for a while. After I blew up 2 of them, I
reconsidered.
Clark

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited 04-03-2002).]

Clark:

Now I found letter from AA and there is:

"Therefore, we feel that the maximum loads shown here are suitable for CZ-52 handguns in good condition. Other handguns of lessor quality (Soviet & Chinese Tokarevs) should probably be loaded in more cautious manner for safety's sake (i.e. 30 Mauser data)."

There is nothing like "CZ-52 is much stronger than tokarevs", this is my mistake and I heard it from some gun sellers or so . . .

There is also "The data shown here was first developed in pressure barrel. We then fired the same loads thru an issue CZ-52 with a barrel length of 4.9" to record velocities"

Loads shown Sierra 85RN bullet, starline brass, 13.1gr of Accurate no9 =>1622fps and 41000CUP.

I understand you well that Tokarevs could be stronger (are stronger). I know a guy who fired few 9mm Browning shells with lead bullets thorough 7.62 barrel (he changed barrel from 9mm to 7.62 but forgot switch ammo). After few shots he found that something is wrong because he found something like lead worns around target. Nothing happend with gun, so it is also mark of its strength.

I found that Chinese made Norinco NP-10 but can't get one here. Are there any semiauto pistols chambered in this caliber in production ? I also seen old nagant revolvers chambered for this round . . .

Thanks for replies, you guys are the real deal.

Here's what I found when I was online searching for info related to Tokarev pistol.

sksman.com came up with an idea that, since Norinco and Hungary were producing Tokarev both in 7.62 Tok. and 9x19 para., the site thought why not sell conversion barrels so calibers can be changed with a change of the barrel. Sizes of magazine and bolt-face of the two calibers are close, a dedicated 9mm magazine is sold(sold out for now) altho original magazine for 7.62Tok. works for both calibers. A product test article is included on the page, the conversion worked satisfactorily without problem according to author.

I wonder if this is a good idea because there is a pressure difference in two cartridges. A 9mm barrel sure can contain pressure of 9mm loads but will the rest of the gun take the working pressure? What are the maximum working pressure for the two calibers 7.62X25 Tok. and 9X19 Para.?

I have got aftermarket barrels for Tokarevs that are extremelly good, and ones that are pounded togeher from concentric tubes and free hand ground to shape.

Here is a synopsis of my 7.62x25 load development with WSP primers:

1) 15.3 gr H110, CZ52, 86 gr, S&B brass, ok, case full.

2) 13.5 gr AA#9 is max AA book load, 86 gr FMJ, 1913 fps, 41.8k cup

a) 13.6 gr, CZ52, S&B brass .. OK, more powerful than above H110 load

b), 13.7 gr, CZ52, Polish 55 Berdan brass [compressed load] .. Kaboom [case
head separation caused slide to split][bye bye $200 gun].

3) 11.7 gr AA#9 is max AA book load, 110 gr , 1688 fps, 42k cup

a) 13.7 gr splits a second CZ52 barrel and slide [bye bye $150 gun].

b) 13.8 gr in Tokarev, shakes trigger bar loose with stock recoil spring

c) 14.2 gr in Tokarev, Starline brass, primer falls out

d) 14.6 gr in Tokarev, Starline brass rim ripped off, failed to extract

e) 14.9 gr in Tokarev, Starline brass bulges and rim rips off.

f) 15.1 gr in Tokarev, OK with S&B brass

g) 15.3 gr in Tokarev, S&B brass, primer falls out. 31%

4) No book loads available for these powders, I am just making up the staring point, in Tokarev, 110 gr Hornady FMJ, 1.3", Starline brass:

a) 17 gr LIL'GUN ok, case full

b) 12 gr N105, primer fell out, case almost full

c) 13 gr N110, ok, case full

d) 15 gr XMP5744, ok, case full

e) 10.5 gr LONGSHOT, ok, can go higher, will try this week