How many people here believe that the so called accuracy loads listed in the loading manuals will be the most accurate load in their rifles?The same can be asked about loads that are most accurate in someone elses rifle.
I personally have found the so called accuracy loads to be just as dependable as the velocities posted in the loading manuals,in other words not dependable at all.I have seen cases where the so called accuracy load shot well in one or two rifles but the same load was one of the worst in other rifles.I have found the same to be true when someone has told me about a load that was so great in their rifle.It works well in some rifles but is poor in other rifles.It seems that people believe in these so called accuracy loads because they want to find a shortcut to the best load in their rifle without having to develop one themselves.Some people have just not learned that each rifle is an individual and has it's own load preferences.This is made obvious by the number of people asking what load will be the most accurate in their rifle.

I don't...

So true sj!

I see an "accuracy load " as nothing more than a suggestion for a possible accurate load for a given bullet/powder combination in a specific caliber.

stubblejumper,
Your point is well taken.

Good point Stubble. There ase so many variables to rifle accuracy that a compatable load is just part of the recipe.

There is a request here for a load for the 150 Partition in a 7mm-08 and I have one that shoots well in a Kimber. I was going to go down and look it up but I said to myself that it does not really matter. I could tell them that IMR 4350 does well with that bullet and leave it to someone to work it up.

I think the same of the "Pet Loads" by Ken Waters which are of similar value what that they show no maximum or starting load or maximum load.

I take the load data, start in the middle and work up in .3gr increments from there. All I am looking for is a safe starting point. Unless you exactly duplicate their test rifle,..no need in "beleiving" the majic will transfer to your bench.

quote:

Some people have just not learned that each rifle is an individual and has it's own load preferences.This is made obvious by the number of people asking what load will be the most accurate in their rifle

________________________________________________

It`s been a long time so I`m not real sure of the manuals author, but I asked I believe Lyman once what they looked for in the loads they listed as "accuracy loads". They replied the loads were simply the loading that gave the most consistant results in their testing. This didn`t include target shooting just pressures and velocities from a test barrel.
I agree this would be a good starting point but think the other loads listed are just as apt to show the same level of accuracy depending on the rifle used.

My Hornady manual lists what gun they shot to get their "accuracy" load.

Stubblejumper: Your point is very well taken. I read those posts where someone asks for a good load for his pet rifle and it has just got to make ya wonder. However, like some other poster said, it does not hurt to take those loads and "see" if they work in a particular rifle. I will say, however, that any time I see something about the 7x57mm or .223 Remington, I'll read all over it. Thanks for the post Stubblejumper. It is something that I have been feeling for a long, long time, but never put into words yet. Now, ya beat me to it. Tom Purdom

quote:

Originally posted by Walker:
My Hornady manual lists what gun they shot to get their "accuracy" load.

So are you saying that if you have the same make and model of gun as listed in the manual that your gun will be the most accurate with the accuracy load listed in the manual?

quote:

Originally posted by stubblejumper:
...It seems that people believe in these so called accuracy loads because they want to find a shortcut to the best load in their rifle without having to develop one themselves.Some people have just not learned that each rifle is an individual and has it's own load preferences.This is made obvious by the number of people asking what load will be the most accurate in their rifle.

Hey SJ, Dead in the old 10X!

Hasn't been that long ago we had Rookie Green(green788) trying to convince folks about his Optimum Charge Weight(OCW) loads being "perfect" in ANY rifle ever chambered for a specific Cartridge. Pitiful!

I see in a separate post a fellow who recently traded for a new rifle is all perplexed because the Loads he used in his previous rifle of the same caliber won't shoot well in the new one. I went through and made a good number of suggestions to try and help him get going. One of which was that he needs to Develop a Load Specifically for this new rifle, not just use a Randomly Picked Load. So, he apparently decided to just re-shoot the old Randomly Picked Loads again. And now I see he has started a new post asking why they(the non-developed Randomly Picked Loads) won't shoot well in the new rifle.

Fine by me, he has been told "how" to correct the problem and chooses not to do so. If he sticks with his current method, he "might" eventually trip onto a Load that will work for him. But, he will never know if he has reached the optimum accuracy potential for the new rifle. Meanwhile the frustration of shooting patterns rather than groups will grow for him.

Well, I have to go against the tide on this one. I agree that accuracy loads have no guarantee but I do think they have merit and are a great place to start. Noslers accuracy load of 85.0 7828 (180 bullet) has been phenominal in my 300 wby. Sierra accuracy load for the contender has been fantistic in my 7-30 waters. I had a fussy .308 bar and noslers accuracy load for 150 grainers wound up being a tack driver. Barnes recomended powder wound up being great for the barnes 150xbt fn in my buddies 30-30. Almost all the manuals list about 57 grains of 4350 for 165's in the '06---many many times a winner.
Are they always a winner in ALL guns...nope. But I will still say that there are loads out there that manufacturers have found with all their extensive testing that seem to work very very well in general. AND I can't help but believe that federal, rem, winchester, and hornady dont' have some success formulas that seem to shoot good overall. This is proven by good quality match loads. These guys won't sell ammo if it barely hit's the pie plate for most buyers. They have to have a load that has a reputation for being pretty darn good.

quote:

So are you saying that if you have the same make and model of gun as listed in the manual that your gun will be the most accurate with the accuracy load listed in the manual?

Not at all. Just throwing a detail from the manual into the topic.

I'm an 80/20 split on this. 80% is a no. However, I have also noted that with Nosler's manual, I often get good accuracy with whichever powder/bullet they did, although it may not be the exact same charge.

I'm going to be the devil's advocate on this.Say if you have standard 30.06,22" sporter barrel and with it's old military twist,it's good chance it will shoot "the load" well.

I take little to no stock in accuracy loads but I do take stock in accuracy bullets as a generality. Typically I find Nosler Ballistic Tips, Hornady's interlocks, and Swift's A-Frames to be accurate bullets. If my gun won't shoot one of them then it probably won't shoot anything well.

Vapodog-that round went straight through the X-ring. It isn't about "pet loads" for someone else's rifle, or "accuracy loads" from reloading manuals, but about good barrels, accurate bullets, and accurate reloading techniques (plus a healthy dose of good shooting technique).

A few comments and questions re: working up an accurate load -

Seems there are certain powders which a particular cartridge will like, correct?

Assuming one is using known accurate bullets (benchrest grade for example) would you say seating depth (or the bullets relation to the lands) is an important (or most important) thing to play with?

Used to be a rule of thumb, that best accuracy was found just touching the lands or just off it. Is this still true (in general)?

IOW, guess I'm asking, what's the fastest way to find an accurate load?

quote:

Originally posted by sonofagun:
...Seems there are certain powders which a particular cartridge will like, correct?

Actually depends on the specific Cartridge, but normally quite a few. The more popular Cartridges have an abundance of Powders that work well in them.

quote:

Assuming one is using known accurate bullets (benchrest grade for example) would you say seating depth (or the bullets relation to the lands) is an important (or most important) thing to play with?

It is important to "Fine Tune" the Harmonic "if" you are interested in the best possible accuracy.

quote:

Used to be a rule of thumb, that best accuracy was found just touching the lands or just off it. Is this still true (in general)?

It is a quick and easy way to get a person started because you have a known distance to begin with. Once the person understands Harmonics and how they occur, then it becomes apparent why there is not one exact load or one exact Seating Depth that provides the best accuracy for all rifles of a specific caliber.

For a quick understanding about how Harmonics work, go to a Gun Store, borrow the booklet from a Browning BOSS, sit down and read it. The BOSS effectively adjusts the Harmonic on one rifle to a specific Load and Seating Depth. Simply moving the BOSS in-or-out slightly on the barrel changes the Harmonic.

That is the exact opposite of what we do when we adjust the Load and Seating Depth for a specific rifle, but the results are the same.

quote:

...what's the fastest way to find an accurate load?

The "fastest way" would be if a person is lucky enough to Randomly Pick a Load and Seating Depth and have it work for them. And if you look above, you will see a few posts that say that Method works for them. These are the exact people you hope to find when it is time to shoot and see who buys the BBQ for Supper.

Once you get to the point where you realize that getting the best possible accuracy and "the fastest way possible" just don't go together, then you settle in to a proven routine that works for nearly every firearm ever made - the never improved upon Creighton Audette Load Development Method.

You use the Audette Method to locate the Group Clusters. Then once you know where the Group Clusters are located, you Fine Tune the Load by adjusting the Seating Depth and you are ready.

But, you really don't have to use Mr. Audette's Method, unless you just happen to want the best accuracy possible.

I've found the loading manuals's suggestions to be pretty useless, but there are well known loads that will give a high degree of accuracy in most guns. Most of these loads came out of shooting disciplines. At any PPC match, the vast majority of shooters will be using 2.7-2.8 grains of Bullseye or 3.1 grains of 231 under a 148 grain bullet.

The military match folks have standard loads for their common calibers. They've shot enough stuff through enough rifles to know that certain loads have a long history of excellent accuracy in most guns.

You can generally work up a better load for a particular rifle, but there is no better place to start than with one of the established loads.

I think we tend to be too critical of people and question's they ask here. I see peoples negative attitudes bleed thru their comments here. If a person ask's a question, answer him as closely as possible to your best suggetion's and it's up to the person how he uses the info. Remember, a lot of people here have a wealth of knowledge that can save others who maybe rookies a lot of time and trouble. I value each person's suggestion's whether I agree or not. Criticism can be good if given properly.

I however, do agree that each rifle is an individual and trial and error must be used. Most manuals are good for starting points but nothing replaces the trial and error method at the bench and range. This time getting to know our rifles is most important.

Well I'm going to go against the tide here. If someone has a load that has proved accurate in his 257R Ruger 77 Ultralight, then I would be VERY surprised if it did badly in mine. Why in heavens name are FACTORY rounds eg. Federal Premiums proving so accurate in a wide range of rifles? I believe that this B/S about rifles that shoot 2" groups suddenly shooting 3/4 inch groups with the "magic" reload is just that B/S.
As a previous poster mention, the bullet is a significant part of the equation. Having said that some calibers are intrinsically accurate: 223 for one, 300WM and 375H&H to name just three (Ruger 556 the exception!). My reloading book does state the type of barrel used. Some times it is a test barrel, in which case I generally ignore the accuracy results. However, when they state the make of rifle used, and tell me that the most accurate results were obtained with a certain bulet weight, then I use that information. If I am looking for the most accurate load for a 30/06, I am not going to be looking at 130 grain bullets for example.
I don't believe in "magic" loads. The first thing I do when I find a "magic" load is to attempt to duplicate it ie. load up 5 more and do it again. In most cases, I fail. So, I try it again. If I fail again, I don't have the "magic" load. It was just statistical variation that was in my favor on that day. The NRA when it tested rifles used to shoot 5, 10 shot groups. With this type of testing, your results are a much better predictor of future behavior. Too much gun rag b/S in my opinion about "magic" loads.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
I believe that this B/S about rifles that shoot 2" groups suddenly shooting 3/4 inch groups with the "magic" reload is just that B/S.

I used to believe the same thing. But I've seen a Ballistic tip group open up to almost 2 inches when the seating depth was changed by .040 while all else was the same. I've seen similar results with Sierra bullets. On the other hand, I've got a 270 that shoots a 130 TSX over Re19 and it didn't matter the charge or seating depth....they all grouped less than MOA.

Therefore, I changed my mind, and I know longer believe it is BS.

Sounds like a crap shoot?

Which should make the ammunition component makers happy!

Sonofagun, no I don't think it is a crap shoot. We know that in general certain twist rates stabilize certain bullet weights better than others. We also know that the newer solids like the TSX's and the GS Customs shoot extremely accurately. We also know that certain bullets have a reputation for accuracy. Nosler Partitions, Sierra Matchkings come to mind. So, as someone already mentioned, pick the bullet (weight and configuration) first. We also know that certain powders seem to work very well with certain calibers and bullets. So, my bottom line is to pick what has worked in the past for others ie. the reloading manuals. Certain manuals list an accuracy load, others do not. Also, Sierra has a hot line that you can call and get "accuracy loads". So given the large number of bullet manufacturers, weights and types, plus the variety of powders, one can use the available information and make some judicious choices to limit the varaibles. Possibly, nothing may work. Well gee, maybe it's the rifle!
Peter.

quote:

We also know that certain bullets have a reputation for accuracy. Nosler Partitions, Sierra Matchkings come to mind.

I have to disagree with you on the partition.It does shoot accurately in some guns but in my experience it has on average been one of the less accurate bullets.The ballistic tip and lately the tsx, have consistantly been the most accurate bullet in the rifles that I have developed loads for.In my rifles(and in several other rifles that I have developed loads for) partitions usually group 1 MOA to 1-1/2 MOA while ballistic tips and the tsx are averaging
1/2 MOA to 3/4 MOA in the same rifles.

OK GUYS HERES MY HUMOR ON HOW TO MAKE ANY RIFLE SHOOT. I learned this from all the above posts.

You start by checking manuals and finding "accuracy loads".
Then you forget what brand of bullet the manual was talking about and you use "accurate" bullets which are matchkings, ballistic tips, and tsxs,
Then you use the audette method to work up a load from the above situation.
If all that fails just go buy some factory match ammo......ONE WAY OR ANOTHER SOMETHING HAS GOT TO WORK OR THROW THE GUN AWAY!!

I can't help but laugh when someone gives advice such as"try this load,if it doesn't shoot accurately sell the gun".

Define accurate!I would say an 1 1/2" at 100meters.

The wording is "Send it to a gunsmith"

quote:

Define accurate!I would say an 1 1/2" at 100meters.

The wording is "Send it to a gunsmith

My definition of accurate is 1" at 100 yards or better.Actually some people on this forum have gone as far as to tell the owner to sell the gun if it didn't shoot accurately with their accuracy load.Here is the exact wording used in one such case..

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If you want under 1/2", get some 150MKs and 150NBTs, load em up with 39grs. RE15 and 39.5-41grs. of Varget, respectively. if you don't get 1/2" or less, sell the Weatherby and buy a Rem. SPS Stainless.

If I held stock in Remington I might post the same.

I don't put a lot of stock in their projections for much more than having faith that their data will not rearrange my face if I do my part. Some of it does lend some clues though, as many cartridges display a preference for particular burn rates/quickness etc. And afterall, building a good load is all about deciphering clues.

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
OK GUYS HERES MY HUMOR ON HOW TO MAKE ANY RIFLE SHOOT. I learned this from all the above posts.

You start by checking manuals and finding "accuracy loads".
Then you forget what brand of bullet the manual was talking about and you use "accurate" bullets which are matchkings, ballistic tips, and tsxs,
Then you use the audette method to work up a load from the above situation.
If all that fails just go buy some factory match ammo......ONE WAY OR ANOTHER SOMETHING HAS GOT TO WORK OR THROW THE GUN AWAY!!

Like I said, sounds like a crap shoot!

Reloading is like gambling, it's a crapshoot. There are some powder bullet recipes that tend to provide acceptable results in a variety of guns but they are seldom the most accurate load for any particular gun. If it were true that there were specific combinations that worked in every gun then the ammo manufacturers would already provide them. Sure 4350 tends to work well with 165gr slugs in 30-06's, and 4831 does well with 130's in 270's and N-133 goes well with 68gr flatbases in the 6PPC. But to tell someone that a particular load will be the cats meow in their rifle is simply horseshit.

quote:

Originally posted by Oscar Makonka:
... There are some powder bullet recipes that tend to provide acceptable results in a variety of guns but they are seldom the most accurate load for any particular gun. If it were true that there were specific combinations that worked in every gun then the ammo manufacturers would already provide them. ...

Oscar really nailed it there.

The Load Manuals could be reduced to a single line with the Accuracy Load for each cartridge " IF " it was true.

Do you guys that believe in the Accuracy Loads ever wonder "why" the people Developing Manuals even bother listing all the other combinations they tried? Maybe just to make the Book thicker.

The load may have been the most accurate for the rifle they were using at the time and may be a good starting point for some rifles. But to say it is possibly the most accruate for all is just plain dumb! And as for it being a short cut for those not wanting to work up a load, it don't work that way and they have to work one up anyway. But you have to remember something when dealing with this. There is a multitude of shooters who call 3"-4" groups at 100 yards an accrute group. So they load up the "golden" accrute load of the manual and shoot 3.5" and figure it is ok for them. Same goes for those shooting factory ammo at a 3" group and calling it good. But for the manual to tell me that it is my best choice is like the Democrats telling me to give them all my money and then they will take care of me!

I guess those accuracy loads may help newbies at the loading game. Most of us here did not start out knowing everything. Knowing what I do now I agree the accuracy loads are worthless to me and most of us here. Even our great recipes will not work in another guys gun because they have to play with seating depth for one and all the other variables. Takes time but finding those recipes is fun stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by stubblejumper:
I can't help but laugh when someone gives advice such as"try this load,if it doesn't shoot accurately sell the gun".

Stubble, You must be talking about me, EH?
Well, It's something I really believe, though I do know some rifles will tend to like different bullets other than the ones I use. But my statement is usually just being very confident in my load, still no sure bet that it will shoot good in "your" rifle, but it sounds good. Jay

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Gorski:

quote:

Originally posted by stubblejumper:
I can't help but laugh when someone gives advice such as"try this load,if it doesn't shoot accurately sell the gun".

Stubble, You must be talking about me, EH?
Well, It's something I really believe, though I do know some rifles will tend to like different bullets other than the ones I use. But my statement is usually just being very confident in my load, still no sure bet that it will shoot good in "your" rifle, but it sounds good. Jay

I am referring to anyone that would make such a statement.