M98, have you noticed in the Barnes Reloading Manual (No. 3) that for the 30/06 (24" barrel) numerous loads are published as achieving over 2900 fps with the Barnes 180 gr. XLC/BT? For example:

61 grs. IMR4831 - 2956 fps
64 grs. MRP ("Re22") - 2965 fps
57.5 grs. H414 - 2932 fps
61 grs. R19 - 2944 fps.

These are spectacular velocities for a 24" barreled 30/06!

They use the blue-coated Barnes XLC bullet. Have you (or anyone posting here) been able to achieve these superior velocities with the "Blue" bullets from Barnes?

This is a very consistent theme in the Barnes Reloading Manual - that is, it's possible to achieve up to 200 fps more with the XLCs when they are loaded to the same PSI - but to achieve the latter one must add more powder.

Your (or anyone's) thoughts? Regards, AIU

Does Barnes actually have a pressure gun? I'm extremely skeptical that those velocities can be reached at SAAMI pressures, though I haven't actually tried the blue bullets.

Personally....my experience....hell no!

For me the blue coating has been worth about 50 fps max...kind of like moly coating...a good way to add more powder for the same velocity.

Ive seen some people report 100-125 fps but I wonder if they aren't running about another 5k more pressure than their old loads!!

Then look at all the accuracy complaints onthe blue bullets. Not very many people are reporting good results unless they have a gun that is just a plain good shooter with almost any bullet.

Time for them to go on sale....and never be marketed again!! All hail the tsx!!

I push a Nosler Partition 180 out of my 24" Springfield at 2800Fps+. Without going to the top loads listed for 4350. So it seems to me, a guy could get 2900fps, if he had a mind too. As to Barnes bullets, I don't care what kind of coating they have upon them, they don't shoot very accurately.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by popenmann:
Does Barnes actually have a pressure gun? I'm extremely skeptical that those velocities can be reached at SAAMI pressures, though I haven't actually tried the blue bullets.

I'm getting 2,825'/sec with Hornady 180s in a 22" barrel and I'm several grains over the book max.....I believe it's still w/n the 65,000 PSI but well over SAAMI specs....

Of the three boxes of "XFB" bullets I had, two of them were burned up just tuning the load, the third sits collecting dust.

Three things turned me off:
-case necks required chamfering with a VLD reamer to protect the coating
-the accuracy
-the $$.
No need to complain about the bullet coating stuck in the seating dies as I'm sure you know that story.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I'm getting 2,825'/sec with Hornady 180s in a 22" barrel and I'm several grains over the book max.....I believe it's still w/n the 65,000 PSI but well over SAAMI specs....

You might be surprised how much additional pressure is required to gain 50 - 100 fps.

quote:

You might be surprised how much additional pressure is required to gain 50 - 100 fps

Yep, Loadtech shows about 900psi for each 10fps when you are 60-65000 range in an 06 and 180gr bullet and IMR4831.

Don't forget that the Nosler Manual has the following 180 gr. load for a 24" barreled 30/06:

2872 fps achieved with 61 grs. of Re22 (60,000 PSI according to QL).

Subtract 50 fps for a 22" barrel and you've got 2822 fps.

Vapodog could have a great lot of IMR4831, and Hornady bullets are not that "stiff."

Regards, AIU

Let's see, Hogdgon #26 also lists 61 gr. RL22 under a 180, but only 2773 fps in a 26" barrel. Subtract 100 fps for a 22" barrel and you're at 2673 fps. You guys must have some exceptionally fast barrels.

Who the hell can argue "loading manual" datas. They all vary, and are intended as a "guide" not Gospel. I know VAPO and a couple of the other guys now on this thread, use chronographs, to check there speeds. Some have pressure testing equipment as well. As a very intelligent man once said; "when are shooters going to learn, that every rifle is a law unto itself".

Jerry

ACKLEY
sorry for the lond delay...i did not notice your post
to put it bluntley im skeptical, the barnres blue bullets and the tsx run at higer pressures than the nosler partitions
with 63 GNS OF MRP behind a 180 gn NOSLER PART ,
the pressure gun gave us a reading of 2870 fps
with a pressure of 63,000
R22 63 gns velocity of 2850 and a pressure of around 63,000 also
i cant remember what R 19 gave me exacley but i think 61 gns gave a velocity of 2830 for a psi of 65000...but i would have to check on this
with the barnes x bullets taking up more case room , having a longer bearing surface etc etc ...i cannot see how they get those velocities
ackley if you have a few of those blue bullets if you want to send them over i can run them through A REAL pressure gun and you will see what you get
i would not get excited about those velocities in the barnes manual..i think they are unrealistic
im gong to try some of that MORMA URP.........
NORMA LOADs there loaded ammo pretty conservativley, but they are claiming 3120 fps with 150 gn bullets and 2810 fps with there 180 gn bullets in the o6
i think with the 150 nosler i will get 3200 fps at a pressure of under 65,000 and with the 180, i think i could be getting close to the MRP...2870-2900...the people at norma told me the NORMA URP falls inbetween N 204 and N MRP in its burning rate, but is impregnated with a greater percentage of nitroglucerine for a higher energy
it even may be a good powder for the longer barnes tsx, as im finding with the really slow burners like the VVN 165 ,R22, N MRP, im struggling with the case capacity, but then again the new barnes MRX will solve the case capacity or at least help with it as the proj are a bit shorter
regards daniel

Daniel, send me your address, I'll send you 25 "blue" 180s.

Wow! You're getting close to the magic 2900 fps with a 30/06 with 180 NPTs and a 24" barrel - 63 grs of MRP or Re22 (some say the same stuff) and only 63,000 PSI.

TRY Re25 - about 66 grs. I bet you hit 2900 fps with less than 65,000 PSI. I get ~3100 fps with my 30/06 AI with a 26" barrel - 70 grs. You'll need to tap and compress.


Regards, AIU

I don't know what factory process is used for the Hornady Light Magnum ammunition, but you can equal or exceed their velocities without excessive pressures, if you're willing to tap in powder and use compressed loads.

I have a .257 Ackley Improved (AI), .25-06 AI, .280 AI, and 30-06 AI. All guns are custom made bolt-action rifles (Rem M700 or Win M70) with match-grade 26" barrels. I have developed loads for all by experimenting with almost all available modern powders and by chronographing every test firing. I've developed these loads in conjunction with the NECO Internal Ballistic Program. I have reams of data.

The best performance - at a given pressure for a given weight bullet - is almost always obtained with the slowest burning powder that will fill the case and bring the maximum pressure to the desired level.

For example, consider Reloader 25 in a 30-06 using 180 grain bullets with no higher than 65,000 psi. A standard Winchester 30-06 case will roughly hold 66 grains of R25, when tapped in and the powder compressed by the bullet. Reloader 25 compresses nicely, and with tight case necks the bullet will not be pushed back out by the compressed powder. With a 24 inch barrel, maximum velocity with a 180 bullet will approach 3000 fps.

I would NEVER recommend starting with this load, but rather recommend working up to it by starting from 62 grains of R25 - then incrementally increasing the charge by 0.5 grain increments until serious pressure signs develop or you achieve 66 grains.

I'm willing to tolerate "significant" pressure - that is, pressures often used when loading the .270 or some of the new magnums. (These new magnums look good, because they're being loaded to pressures significantly higher than the older calibers - well over 60,000 psi – even 65,000 psi. Hence, the comparisons to the “old†are not fair; remember, the companies want to sell new guns.)

A standard modern bolt-action rifle will tolerate about 160,000 psi; hence, you're not in danger of bursting the gun – not even close. But, you don't want to load beyond 65-70,000 psi, because beyond that pressure you can get a sticky bolt or even a frozen case in the chamber - a disaster, if you need a second shot at the trophy of a lifetime. Loading to 65,000 psi will loosen those primer pockets fairly quickly. To test for loose primer pockets, I hand prime all cases and "feel" the primer into the pocket - indeed, you can consider your brass case a type of "brass crusher" pressure gauge. I don't care too much about multiple reloadings of a single case, because cases are cheap, expendable, and very easy to replace.

Finally, I’ve found that Reloader 25 is about the best slow-burning, high load density, high energy powder on the market. I routinely get the best performance – both accuracy and velocity – with the lowest pressures. Yet, you must load a relatively heavy bullet. When you go to lighter bullets (e.g., 165, 150, or 130 grain for the 30-06), you’ll need to use R22 or R19 to achieve maximum desired pressure.

Regards, Ackley Improved User

popenmann, I would ignore the Hodgdon manual for all except Hodgdon powders. If you look, almost all of everyone elses powders are far inferior to theirs in their manual, and in some cases, several hundred fps short of all other manuals.

Larry,
You are right that Hodgdon often portrays their own powders in a more favorable light. That said, the highest velocity they show for a 180 grainer is 2787 fps with IMR4350, followed by 2773 fps with RL22, from their 26" tight-chambered test barrel.

On the plus side, Hodgdon does list the pressure for each load, instead of merely saying "these loads do not exceed SAAMI spec" like some manuals. I favor the Hodgdon manual for that reason. My only complaint is that they are still using CUP for many cartridges.

I certainly have not been able to achieve the miraculous velocities at safe pressures that some people are claiming. I have pushed 180's past 2800 fps in a 22" barrel, but it took 65,000 - 70,000 psi to do it, as measured with a strain gage. I don't like to run that hot on a regular basis, and I don't encourage other people to do so.

There will always be handloaders who believe that they have found a magic way to beat the factory data. Those darned factories are just holding back on us.

Ackley Improved user I'm not sure where you are getting your loading data but according to my manuals all those loads are 1 to 4 Gr over MAX.

140 grain blues are the only thing that won't shoot well out of my 6.5 swede.

Jay, think I got it right - check the No. 3 Barnes Manual for the 30/06 180 XLC (Blue) bullets. It's what they recommend as MAX - hard to believe, but true.

As to being a copule grains over the max listed in a loading manual, it depends on the rifle. Like AI said, you aren't going to "blow up" a modern bolt action rifle with 70,000psi loads. Nothing in this game is written in "stone". If you don't want to take the time, and make the effort to see what your particular rifle cartridge combination likes or can safely handel, then you must rely on the published data.
For me, the fun of it all is experimenting with the data and seeing what my stuff will do. Almost always, my loads produce more velocity and better consistancy shot to shot, than the published data I use as a "reference".

Here's a load that produces over 2800fps in my 24" 30-06, time in and time out. 57 grains IMR4350/180 Nosler Partition/Winchester Brass= 2844fps.

Jerry

I haven't tried the 180 xlc in my '06, but I have the 130, 150 & 165 just to see how close to the manual they were. I have only had time to try one powder in each. No signs of preassure, but never went higher than .5 gr. under barnes #3 max. All loads were fired from 22" tube, so would be a bit slow.

Tried 748 (because I have a bunch) w/ the 130s they came in averaging 2985fps, well under velocity claims. Trying 760 next.

IMR-4350 w/ 150s were 3000 fps, on the nose, which would be close to claimed velocities and impressive in a 22" tube.

IMR-4831 w/ 165 averaged 2860, still quite good in a 22".

Those Velocities equal most 300 WMs!

Somebody is pulling tha wool...

Reloader