Do you guys like Hodgdons or IMR 4895 powder for 22-250? Or is there any difference in them. My gun has a 26" barrel and i shoot 50gr vmax's most of the time. Thanks

H4895 is a bit faster than the IMR. I've used both, but it seems I've had slightly better accuracy with the IMR version(s).

I have a lot better accuracy with IMRs...

H 4895 sucks...It is hit or miss on accuracy... buy Varget if you want accuracy in a Hodgdon powder for varmint calibers...

IMR's on the other hand is accurate in about any cartridge I put it in... including rounds like the 300 Win Mag and 338 Mag...

Seafire,

I wonder if you can still say this, since IMR
is now Hodgdon?

I am getting some very good consistency out
of H-4895, in my .204 Ruger.

Squeeze

It's true that Hodgdon and IMR (and now Winchester) are the same company, however, Hodgdon has never made a drop of powder in it's life. They purchase it from major powder manufacturers and package it using their name. IMR (formerly DuPont) has been making powder since day one.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
It's true that Hodgdon and IMR (and now Winchester) are the same company, however, Hodgdon has never made a drop of powder in it's life. They purchase it from major powder manufacturers and package it using their name. IMR (formerly DuPont) has been making powder since day one.

That's not true.

I was given to understand that Hodgdon and IMR were gonna stay independent entities.

I get better accuracy with H4895 than I4895.

I don't use it in a 22-250 however. For that I use H380.

Craigster, I didnt know Hodgdon didnt make powder and Bought their powder from major powder manufacturers.

Thats a pretty broad statement

Who does Hodgdon purchase it from? Tell us more about the how they do it? Do they just prurchase what ever they can find maybe from Chink Ho Rink Ho Dink powder co. in china?

Or do they Have a specific recipe and have it made to exact specifications ?

Or is your statement just not true?

I read in one of my older Hodgdon manuals that they made the ball powders like 440 and 380. I might be wrong, have been plenty of times before.

"It may come as a suprise to many handloaders to learn that Hodgdon does not manufacture rifle, handgun and shotshell powders. Most Hodgdon spherical propellants are made by Olin. Other Hodgdon powders are imported from Scotland."
Layne Simpson, Data Manual #25, 1986
That's how thing were then, and I'm reasonably sure it's much different today with ADI and IMR powders. Anyway, it's clear Hodgdon is hear to stay.

As for 4895, I'm with seafire on this one. IMR 4895 has always been consistent and given stellar results. It really is the universal rifle powder.

I have several containers of Hodgdon powder that have "made in Australia" on the label. I do believe whatever powder Hodgon "outsources" is made to their standards.

Unless things have changed dramatically and very recently, Craigster is right. Until Hodgdon bought IMR, Hodgdon was a powder distributer, NOT a powder manufacturer.

Hodgdon started out by selling powder from pulled down anti-aircraft cannon ammunition. What they first called "4350 data powder" in the early 1950s then later branded as 4831, was reportedly from 20 m/m shells. Ball C was from salvaged military small arms ammo. Ball-C (2) was also, but a slightly different burning rate of powder.

Anyway, such were pretty much all the original Hodgdon powders, although they also reportedly then started buying powder which was surplused by the government BEFORE it ever got loaded into military ammo.

Eventually, surplus supplies of prime sellers such as 4831 ran out. Then Hodgdon contracted with various powder mills to manufacture powder to similar specs. One of the first suppliers of "newly-made" 4831 was located in Scotland. A few years later that production site burned to the ground and was not rebuilt. So again, Hodgdon had to look elsewhere. Over the years, Hodgdon eventually began contracting with ADI to get their powders. Up until Hodgdon bought IMR, I believe the vast majority of Hodgdon's "stick" powders were in fact ADI powders, and the great majority of their ball powders were "Winchester" powders.

Two of the most popular, H-322 and Varget, were also available sometimes under the ADI designations of 2208 and 8208 even in the U.S.

Anyway, now that Hodgdon has bought IMR, it is not yet clear how the manufactuerers of their powders will stack up....that is, who may end up manufacturing what. And, of course, that may change every once in a while in the future regardless what it is right now.

So long as it is sold as "cannistered" powder by Hodgdon, there should be no significant problems arise. Basically, that means it will be made/blended so as to provide pressures, velocities, etc. within the specs/tolerances established for a powder of the "number" it bears.

All my Canisters of Hodgdon canisters(4350, 4831, Clays) say Australia except Longshot says made in USA

Hmm , Learn something new

Albert has it pretty much right.

One of Hodgdon's original surplus powders was . . . (drumroll) IMR 4895! Of course, this is all long since gone.

I used a lot of Hodgdon 4895 when it was manufactured by ICI-Nobel in Scotland. It did just fine. I can't say that I've ever used any of the ADI-manufactured 4895, but the old "Scottish" 4895 was about as close in nature to IMR-4895 as any two powders can be.

Most, if not all, of the "Hodgdon Spherical" powders were/are manufactured in the St. Marks (Florida) plant that was formerly owned by Olin (Winchester). Many of the powders marketed under the "Winchester" and "Hodgdon" brand are of identical specifications: WW-748 & BL-C2; WW-760 & H414; WW-540 & HS-6; WW-570 & HS-7 and so on.

IMR Powders (for many years DuPont) have been manufactured in Canada for several years, and I assume that this is still the case.

I have used 4895 in the DuPont (USA) version, in the IMR (Canadian) version, and in the Hodgdon (Scottish) version. All have been very good and so similar as to be indistinguishable. This may or may not be true of the ADI (Australian) version.

It has all been said pretty well...

I have not used any of the old military surplus powders, or the old Nobel Scottish produced powders... ( is that where the old Scot 4350 etc powders came from you see in older manuals?)

The ADI powders I have used are of a different physical construction than IMR powders... which I assume is merely the vehicle to carry the chemicals that actually make the flash/boom and shoot....

I like ADI's powders, but H 4895 just seems to be the most finicky one of their line in all the Uses I have put it thru... whereas IMRs always turns in good to stellar results...

I only trust Vithavouri to save the day and steal the show.I am too scared I might explode with the other stuff.

quote:

I have not used any of the old military surplus powders, or the old Nobel Scottish produced powders... ( is that where the old Scot 4350 etc powders came from you see in older manuals?)

I believe that is correct. Once Hodgdon ran out of its original stock of surplus stick powders they turned to ICI for replacements. H-4831, H-4895, and H-4350 were all produced in Scotland at one time. Herter's also imported the ICI-line for a time waaay back yonder but used different numbers.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

Herter's also imported the ICI-line for a time waaay back yonder but used different numbers.

I can't disagree with that; it may well be correct. I do know when Herter's FIRST started selling powders in the U.S. under their own name, theirs were claimed to be manufactured in Sweden, not Scotland....at least that's what the U.S. NRA folks and Herter's both said.

Actually, the NRA went one step farther and said they WERE Herter's-packaged Norma powders.....

(Hmmm...does that sound like something Hercules [now Alliant] might do some years later....??)

i find the H is a little faster and the IMR a little cleaner.

A friend of mine who lived in Kansas at the time Bruce Hodgdon started peddling powder said it was originally packed in brown paper bags that Bruce sold out of the trunk of his car. I have one of the old cans that they sold the 4831 in. The red and yellow paste on label reads "Hodgdon's Rifle Powder 4831." Also "B. E. Hodgdon, Inc., Merriam Kansas". The label also has load data for 220 Swift, 257 Roberts, 270, and 30/06. Talk about humble beginnings!

Switch to WC-846 it will tripple your barrel life

Craigster -

When I bought my first Hodgdon 4831 powder, it was sold in 100-lb kegs WITH 10,000 primers for UNDER $50. A couple of years later when it was becoming popular and lots more folk were beginning to reload again after THE war, the local gun shop bought kegs of it for resale. You could walk in with ANY kind of container. They'd weigh the container (on the same scale they used to sell bulk bullets), and ladle in however much you wanted. I've bought it in paper bags, lunch boxes, and thermoses, amongst other things.

I still have a couple of the original Kegs (empty now) of the smaller sizes...50 and 20 lbs.

BTW, I doubt anyone will come across any, but there was one lot in particular of surplus 4895 that burned as fast or faster than 3031! It was available from DCM to NRA members. Can't remember if Bruce sold any of it or not. Lot number had a "7" or two, and two or three "2s" in it.

If a guy runs across any OLD Hodgdon 4895 with a lot # like that on it, he should be very cautious about his starting loads. The NRA frequently printed warnings about it for several years due to the number of gun blow-up reports it received.

It's likely a good thing everyone wasn't sue-happy back then...Hodgdon's probably would have been put under by the ambulance-chasers.

Funny thing, back then most people AND the precedent law assumed that if one was too stupid to be careful in life, they likely were the problem, not the manufacturer or distributor.

IMR-4895 is the way to go !!!!!!!!!!!

LLS

[quote]BTW, I doubt anyone will come across any, but there was one lot in particular of surplus 4895 that burned as fast or faster than 3031! It was available from DCM to NRA members. Can't remember if Bruce sold any of it or not. Lot number had a "7" or two, and two or three "2s" in it.

If a guy runs across any OLD Hodgdon 4895 with a lot # like that on it, he should be very cautious about his starting loads. The NRA frequently printed warnings about it for several years due to the number of gun blow-up reports it received."

Interesting stuff, that 4895. it's no problem finding out when all the imr powders, 4198, 3031, 4064 and 4320 came about, but 4895 is a bit of a mystery. Phil Sharpe in his book COMPLETE GUIDE TO HANDLOADING pretty well documents when the above mentioned powders were released, but no mention of 4895. In digging through my old copies of the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN, it's about 1946 or 1947 that mentions 4895 for sale through the DCM. It mentions that there was great variation in the several lot numbers available and that one should use the particular data sheet that came with that particular lot of powder. Variation ranged from as fast as 4198 to as slow as 4320.
I don't know if Hodgden ever sold any by the various lots, as I believe he blended all the lots into one large lot before selling it. I could be wrong on that point, but I don't think so.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
.
I don't know if Hodgden ever sold any by the various lots, as I believe he blended all the lots into one large lot before selling it. I could be wrong on that point, but I don't think so.
Paul B.

I think you are right, Paul. Bruce may or may not have blended it all...I doubt that a bit, as he bought 4895 from the government at several times over the early years of his business and didn't have it ALL before he started first selling it IIRC, but I'm pretty sure he blended whatever he had.

Anyway, it is unlikely anyone will see any with the lot number which would worry me, as I don't think Bruce ever used the same lot numbers on his packages/powders that the government had on them when they sold them in bulk.

I think Bruce probably used a "lot" system specific to his own business and with meanings indigenous to his records alone.

If I get the chance/time, I'll try to look up and post the specific DCM lot# to which I was referring, just in case any still exists anywhere.

Best wishes,

AC