Hi folks! Just bought a new Lee Anniversary kit last week and started reloading .40 caliber, and plan to start with .270 whenever I can decide which of the 100 die sets available to get...


I'm NOT impressed with my Lee Perfect Powder measure I got with my kit. Even if it works perfectly (too early to tell) I can't stand the plastic cheap feel and look of it. I'm looking at the RCBS Uniflow and Redding 3BR measures at $85-135 and wondering if either of them are pretty much dead-nuts accurate for say a 100 round batch, and if they are the quality to still be bolted to my bench 30 years from now...

Or do I have to buy a Harrel for that??


Any other suggestions that are better suited? I'm just getting started...

Your "cheap feel" Lee measure has a reputation of being the most accurate tool for coarse powders but it tends to leak with finer, ball-type powders. It hasn't been on the market long enough to know if it will last 30 years.

The Reddings, Hornadys, Lymans and RCBS measures will last that long but nothing, including the excellant but very expensive Harrels, will measure coarse powders "dead-nuts" on.

I suspect you would like a digital measuring system but doubt any of them will last 30 years either.

http://www.quick-measure.com/index.htm

This measure does just what it claims. No powder cutting and accurate. I have a Lyman D55 and the Quick Measure. There is no comparing, the QM is more accurate and once set up faster operating.

Once you get in the price range of a Harrels or Quick Measure though, you may want to look at one of the new scale/measure type dispensers. I have no experiance with them but, I`ve heard a lot of happy people report on them.

Nope, don't want digital. I would prefer something that will work for decades, or if a part gets messed up I can order it. I like to buy something ONCE. From what I've heard a Uniflow fits the bill, if it is accurate to +/- .01 grains and can throw it at least 50 charges in a row.

The next 30 years of which you speak will take place in the 21st century. Do yourself a favor and pass up the 19th century measures and get one of the digital scale/dispenser units. I have the PACT which has worked perfectly for me for 4 or 5 years. I have seen the RCBS unit in action and it seems to work just as well. I have heard nothing but good comments from a number of Lyman users. I guarantee that once you get one of these units you will throw out ANY volumetric powder measure you might have on hand now---I'm a sometime Lee fan ---but not of their powder measures.I have a pro auto disk that anyone can have if they want to send a prepaid shipping box--same for my RCBS micro adjustable slow poke inaccurate grain cutting measure. You can't have my old Harrell's though I have to keep something for loading on the tailgate until they make one of the scale/dispensers battery powdered.

Not to brag, but;

I have a powder measure that is adequately accurate, is immune to "bridging", CANNOT cut or damage powder grains, is impossible to run out of powder without knowing it, never wears out, is virtually maintenance-free and once adjusted, never goes out of adjustment.

Drawbacks: It is slow and hard to adjust to intermediate weights.

This powder measure can be had at retail locations for under $15 almost anywhere.

I will tell you what it is if you promise not to do the eye-roll thing.

Powder scoops. Lee's offering is convenient and widely available. If you want exact measure by weight, dump the scoop onto a scale and trickle up to weight, but if you use a consistent stroke through a bowl of powder, the weights are remarkably consistent.

When loading on a progressive I do use an automatic powder thrower, but single-stage often finds me scooping and dumping.

Lost Sheep.

"Simplify, simplify." H.D. Thoreau (1817-1862)

Well I have 40 year old PM a Redding bought new in 1968 only thing that I bought for it was a new plastic tube and a powder baffle,10 yrs ago I bought a 2nd one makes it easy setting up for a days loading.

If you buy a RCBS it does not come with the micro adjusting like the Redding but can add it for a extra $40-$50?

Redding Master. Get both regular and pistol powder cylinders. Never look back.

My RCBS Chargemaster Combo really works great, when it works. Been back to the factory on 3 separate occassions and totally replaced twice. Not as dependable am my old RCBS measure. Very nice when working up loads a couple of tenths of a grain at a time, though. Things that you can't count on make me nervous.

Well, I think I have my answer.

Bought the Uniflow today, brought it home and loaded it with Power Pistol, ran a bottle through it to build up a good flow. Set it to 5.0 grains, threw 50 loads, measured load 50 at 5.0 grains, measured the next ten at 5.0 each.

It'll do.


One thing, I felt a kind of vibration during the movement and isolated it to the metal tube sliding against the frame rails. Wrapped a layer of Teflon tape around it, silky-smooth throws now...

In three more years I will have 30 years on my original Uniflow. It still works fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Shibumi:
Well, I think I have my answer.

Bought the Uniflow today, brought it home and loaded it with Power Pistol, ran a bottle through it to build up a good flow. Set it to 5.0 grains, threw 50 loads, measured load 50 at 5.0 grains, measured the next ten at 5.0 each.

It'll do.


One thing, I felt a kind of vibration during the movement and isolated it to the metal tube sliding against the frame rails. Wrapped a layer of Teflon tape around it, silky-smooth throws now...

It might do until you try a coarse stick powder.......
Most any measure will throw a small grained powder well.
I have never heard of a mechanical measure that will throw large grain extruded powders well.

quote:

Originally posted by Shibumi:
edited for brevity
One thing, I felt a kind of vibration during the movement and isolated it to the metal tube sliding against the frame rails. Wrapped a layer of Teflon tape around it, silky-smooth throws now...

Congratulations on a difficult choice.

Is the vibration maybe supposed to be there to keep the powder from "bridging" and to uniformly settle the powder consistently for each repeated charge?

Lost Sheep

I run five charges through my measures and weigh each and then run ten in one pan to see if it is realy as accurate as it seems. Once I modifien the RCBS measure it stays within .1 grain with 10 charges and flat out every charge I weigh is less than .05 grains off - always in only one direction. (as checked with a triple beam lab scale)
My other powder measure is a Lyman 55. It will measure any powder with the same margin of error. I use the RCBS with only Ball powders and the Lyman with any powder.

quote:

It might do until you try a coarse stick powder.......
Most any measure will throw a small grained powder well.
I have never heard of a mechanical measure that will throw large grain extruded powders well.

As I stated above, the Quick Measure absolutly will not cut or bind on ANY powder type. It pours H4350 reg cut like W760.

I have the Lee's Perfect Powder and I have to agree with Shibumi on it being less than desirable. I weigh and trickle every charge to be exact though so it works OK I guess. Been going to get the RCBS Uniflow but haven't made the change yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Shibumi:
Well, I think I have my answer.

Bought the Uniflow today, brought it home and loaded it with Power Pistol, ran a bottle through it to build up a good flow. Set it to 5.0 grains, threw 50 loads, measured load 50 at 5.0 grains, measured the next ten at 5.0 each.

It'll do.

Good choice. My Uniflow has given me good service for 37 years. I smeared some graphite on the drum where it makes metal to metal contact with the frame. And I bought the optional powder baffle. Good enough for my needs.

I've had my Uniflow for 28 years. It's serviceable. It's a nuisance to set up, especially for changing between small pistol charges and large rifle charges. It is nowhere near as precise as you say you need. The charge weight will vary quite noticeably with differing force of down and up strokes on the handle, so you must be consistent. With some powders it will vary noticeably with the height of the powder column. It shears stick powders, requiring forceful operation, and as has been noted those charges will vary noticeably. With very small charges of certain flake powders, such as Nitro 100 for example, the powder will wedge in the corners of the small crescent-shaped cavity left in the measuring chamber as the plunger nears the end, and when the handle is operated the powder is compressed into solid fingernail-like masses that can cause fluctuations of a half grain or more in charges of around 3 grains. They also can bridge the drop tube, causing both squibs and overcharges. It works most repeatably and reliably, of course, with fine ball powders.

I'm not running down the Uniflow. I'm merely pointing out that it has imperfections and cannot be used without understanding its limitations and closely observing the results.

I often use the Lee dippers, too. If you happen to have a Lee dipper of the size you need, there's no better way to measure the "tricky" powders like long tubular powders and sticky flakes like Nitro 100. If you don't have a Lee dipper that's just right, a handy way to adjust them temporarily is to punch disks out of styrofoam meat trays and push them down into the bottom, to reduce the volume of a larger dipper to what you need.

"...flat out every charge I weigh is less than .05 grains off.l.."

Pauls, are you really getting consistant charges with less than half a tenth of a grain variation? If so, that's a truly marvelous measure!

Just started using the uniflo and like it. Haven't used it enough to comment on accuracy with each powder type. I do like the solid construction.

Ricochet. Great tip on the foam for the dippers. I'll use that one.

Congratulations on a difficult choice.

Is the vibration maybe supposed to be there to keep the powder from "bridging" and to uniformly settle the powder consistently for each repeated charge?

Lost Sheep[/QUOTE]

Doubt it, more a function of cost effectiveness and machining tolerances.

A post further down mentioned lubricating drum load surface with graphite, I use furniture wax on my woodworking tool surfaces as a rust preventative, anyone ever use it on the drum for lubrication/smoothness of motion?

What is the difference in the design of Culver style measures? Can't find any cutaway diagram. Does it, or any other similar design not cut powder?

Edit: Found a great article on this! Pictures won't copy of course, but I will include link. LONG post-

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar63.htm


Extreme Measures
By Joseph D'Alessandro Editor | RealGuns.Com

I while back, I wrote an article comparing RCBS Uniflow and Hornady Lock n' Load powder measures. Included was some analysis of the charge throwing consistency, or lack of consistency, demonstrated by each. Almost immediately, I received an e-mail, advising me to buy a Harrell measure, indicating the product is dead on repeatable, and different as a Culver type design. 1) My reasons for not following this advice 1) RCBS and Hornady products use the same methods to meter as the Harrell unit 2) a Harrell powder measure, of capacity similar to the RCBS and Hornady products, sells at over 4 times the price; $229 compared to $55.

I don't have much of an application for a powder measure. I load principally short runs, more reflective of experimentation and varied components than large quantities of uniform production. I'm pretty happy with beam or electronic scale measurement, especially when the use of a properly calibrated scale allows me to put together a bunch of maximum loads, and still keep my eyes open and my fingers out of my ears during range testing. However, when my very thoughtful wife recently gave me a Harrell's powder measure as a present, what could I do but say "thank you", and put the measure to good use.

As supplied by Sinclair International, the Harrell Premium model comes with a 6~120 grain range measure, two drop tubes and a 16 oz powder bottle (not shown). Unless it is desirable to mount the measure directly to a bench, which probably would require sitting on the floor to meter out charges, a clamp type stand is a good investment. Sinclair's portable stand is adjustable for height, bench thickness and lateral rotation of the measure - these sell for $38.50.

The measure is threaded to directly accommodate large mouth powder bottles, as supplied by Hodgdon and Accurate. Accessory bottles are also available; round or square, 8 or 16 oz, bottom plugged or sealed. These are priced at about $7 each. A Harrell Premium set up that will handle a wide array of cartridges, handgun through Weatherby, will run about $268 inclusive of measure, bottle, drop tubes and stand.

All measures are not created equal

There are many firearm related accessories that are priced on name alone, offering comparable goods and quality, with a great disparity in price. The Harrell powder measure does not fall into this category. A Harrell measure is a little like a Jessie James custom Harley, in that both are fully functional, but they are also examples of mechanical art.

The body of the Harrell Premium measure is a precision cast aluminum piece, polished, with a lot of clean machine work for precise assembly fit. The brass metering device rotates within two roller bearings (1). The metering body is fully indexed (2) and the size of the powder metering cavity (3) is described, by the manufacturer, as adjustable in tenth or one and one half tenth grain increments. As a result of a tight mechanical fit, bearings and quality of material and assembly, the operation of the measure is very smooth. I believe this feel is quite an accomplishment, in light of the absence of mass and inertia of a heavier cast iron assembly.


To better illustrate how the measure works, I removed the baffle (3) that resides between the powder reservoir and the metering device. Essentially, the adjustment thimble (1) moves the solid center of the metering device in or out of a slotted brass sleeve. This adjustment controls the volume of the cavity (2) that is exposed to the powder reservoir when the measure's handle is rotated to the up position. In this position, gravity moves the powder from the reservoir to fill the cavity. The measure's handle is then rotated downward, which inverts the cavity, effectively closing the cavity to the powder reservoir, and allowing gravity to empty its contents through the bottom of the measure, and on out through the drop tube. Raising the measure's handle begins the cycle again. I just described what represents about half a second in real-time operation. A $60 powder measure functions approximately the same way; the body of a powder measure has two ports, one on top to bring in powder, and one below to discharge powder. A drum with a variable metering cavity resides and rotates between these two ports, alternately filling from the powder reservoir above, then emptying into a cartridge case or other form of vessel below.

A nice touch - at the end of the adjustment thimble of the metering device are four set screws (A-D). By moving the retaining set screw, and contained spring and detent ball from position D to position "A", there will be 4 clicks rather than 6 between increments. This changes the adjustment resolution from .1 grain per click to .15 grains per click. Powder measures are generally much more coarse in adjustment. The Harrell product's brass parts are nicely finished and the index marking are very clean and easy to read, however, setting by click feel requires no visual cues; much like making click adjustments on a scope without looking at the markings.

The RCBS measure on the right is pretty typical of the construction used in lower cost powder measures. The adjusting screw (1) has a carriage bolt like head that fills the diameter of the drum's cavity (2) and is adjusted in or out to vary the cavity's volume. Rotated upward, the cavity aligns with the measure's body port (3) that connects to the measure's powder reservoir. When the drum is rotated downward, the cavity aligns with the discharge port at the bottom (4) and throws a single charge. The measure's body is cast iron, the powder reservoir is staked in place and must be filled from a powder storage canister, there are no bearings or bushings and the drum rides directly on the machined cast walls of the body (5).

There are upgrades for low cost powder measures. Sinclair International offers kits to covert these measure for use with screw in powder containers. This change improves material handling convenience, and cuts down on handling of powder. A bottle adapter runs about $18 for an RCBS unit.

If you own an RCBS Uniflow powder measure, you can replace its course adjusting screw, with a fine thread indexed micrometer adjustment screw. The cost is about $34 from online discount retailers, and it is easy to install. The micrometer adjustment screw for my RCBS measure has been installed only twice, as it seems to offer little control or convenience over the standard adjuster.

Is the Harrell measure functionally superior?

In the final analysis, I believe a powder measure should be judged on its ability to measure powder (duh), so I set both the Harrell Premium measure, and the RCBS Uniflow not so premium measure, up on the bench and ran some sample charges. In all cases, the powder reservoirs were full. 10 throws were made before weights were recorded, and each charge was measured on an RCBS Pro Powder scale that was calibrated, and verified with a beam scale, after each table was completed. Ambient temperature varied between 68º~71º, humidity remained a constant 58%.


Moderate Charges - Spherical Powder
Harrell Premium Powder Measure RCBS Uniflow
Throw Grains of
Win 748 Change
from min
grains Change
from min
% Grains of
Win 748 Change
from min
Grains Change
from min
%
1 29.9 .1 .3 38.6 .1 .2
2 29.9 .1 .3 38.6 .1 .2
3 29.9 .1 .3 38.6 .1 .2
4 29.8 - - 38.7 .2 .5
5 29.9 .1 .3 38.5 - -
6 29.8 - - 38.5 - -
7 29.8 - - 38.5 - -
8 29.8 - - 38.5 - -
9 29.9 .1 .3 38.6 .1 .2
10 29.8 - 38.5 - -
11 29.8 - 38.6 .1 .2
12 29.8 - 38.6 .1 .2
13 29.9 .1 .3 38.6 .1 .2
14 30.0 .2 .7 38.5 - -
15 29.8 - - 38.5 - -
16 29.9 .1 .3 38.7 .2 .5
17 29.9 .1 .3 38.7 .2 .5
18 29.9 .1 .3 38.6 .1 .2
19 29.9 .1 .3 38.6 .1 .2
20 29.9 .1 .3 38.6 .1 .2
Max Variation .2 .7 .2 .5
Temp variance 68º~71º Humidity 58%


Heavy Charges - Spherical Powder
Harrell Premium Powder Measure RCBS Uniflow
Throw Grains of
Win 748 Change
from min
grains Change
from min
% Grains of
Win 748 Change
from min
Grains Change
from min
%
1 91.2 .1 .1 92.4 - -
2 91.2 .1 .1 92.5 .1 .1
3 91.2 .1 .1 92.5 .1 .1
4 91.3 .2 .2 92.6 .2 .2
5 91.1 - - 92.7 .3 .3
6 91.3 .2 .2 92.4 - -
7 91.2 .1 .1 92.6 .2 .2
8 91.2 .1 .1 92.6 .2 .2
9 91.2 .1 .1 92.6 .2 .2
10 91.3 .2 .2 92.4 - -
11 91.3 .2 .2 92.4 - -
12 91.2 .1 .1 92.7 .3 .3
13 91.3 .2 .2 92.6 .2 .2
14 91.3 .2 .2 92.7 .3 .3
15 91.3 .2 .2 92.7 .3 .3
16 91.2 .1 .1 92.5 .1 .1
17 91.3 .2 .2 92.6 .2 .2
18 91.1 - - 92.7 .3 .3
19 91.1 - - 92.7 .3 .3
20 91.1 - - 92.7 .3 .3
Max Variation .2 .2 .3 .3
Temp variance 68º~71º Humidity 58%

Moderate Charges - Extruded Powder
Harrell Premium Powder Measure RCBS Uniflow
Throw Grains of
Re 22 Change
from min
grains Change
from min
% Grains of
Re 22 Change
from min
Grains Change
from min
%
1 28.9 .5 2 32.5 .1 .3
2 28.8 .4 1 32.9 .5 2
3 28.9 .5 2 32.6 .2 .6
4 28.8 .4 1 32.4 - -
5 28.8 .4 1 33.7 1.3 4
6 28.7 .3 1 33.2 .8 2
7 28.8 .4 1 33.3 .9 3
8 28.4 - - 32.7 .3 1
9 28.5 .1 .3 32.8 .4 1
10 28.8 .4 1 33.1 .7 2
11 28.8 .4 1 32.5 .1 .3
12 28.8 .4 1 32.7 .3 1
13 28.6 .2 .6 33.0 .6 2
14 28.8 .4 1 32.4 - -
15 28.7 .3 1 32.5 .1 .3
16 28.7 .3 1 33.2 .8 2
17 28.5 .1 .3 33.6 1.2 4
18 28.7 .3 1 33.1 .7 2
19 28.7 .3 1 32.7 .3 1
20 28.8 .4 1 32.4 - -
Max Variation .4 2 1.3 4
Temp variance 68º~71º Humidity 58%


Heavy Charges - Extruded Powder
Harrell Premium Powder Measure RCBS Uniflow
Throw Grains of
Re 22 Change
from min
grains Change
from min
% Grains of
Re 22 Change
from min
Grains Change
from min
%
1 85.9 0.5 .5 84.1 .3 .4
2 87.0 1.6 2 83.8 - -
3 85.4 - - 83.8 - -
4 86.5 1.1 1 83.8 - -
5 86.4 1.0 1 83.8 - -
6 86.1 0.7 .8 84.4 .6 .7
7 86.2 0.8 .9 83.9 .1 .1
8 85.8 0.4 .5 83.8 - -
9 85.7 0.3 .4 83.8 - -
10 86.8 1.4 2 83.9 .1 .1
11 86.1 0.5 .6 83.8 - -
12 86.5 1.1 1 84.1 .3 .4
13 86.5 1.1 1 83.8 - -
14 86.8 1.4 2 83.9 .1 .1
15 85.6 0.2 .2 83.8 - -
16 87.4 2.0 2 83.8 - -
17 87.2 1.8 2 83.8 - -
18 87.5 2.1 2 83.9 .1 .1
19 87.3 1.9 2 84.2 .4 .5
20 86.9 1.5 2 83.9 .1 .1
Max Variation 2.1 2 .6 .7
Temp variance 68º~71º Humidity 58%


Very Heavy Charges - Extruded Powder
Harrell Premium Powder Measure RCBS Uniflow
Throw Grains of
Re 22 Change
from min
grains Change
from min
% Grains of
Re 22 Change
from min
Grains Change
from min
%
1 116.4 1.1 1 110.4 - -
2 115.7 0.4 .3 112.8 2.4 2
3 116.1 0.8 .7 113.2 1.8 2
4 116.0 0.7 .6 110.4 - -
5 115.3 - - 112.0 1.6 1
6 116.5 1.2 1 112.3 1.9 2
7 115.3 - - 112.0 1.6 1
8 115.6 0.3 .3 112.0 1.6 1
9 115.9 0.6 .5 113.1 1.7 1
10 115.9 0.6 .5 111.6 1.2 1
11 116.3 1.0 .9 112.8 2.4 2
12 115.8 0.5 .4 112.1 1.7 1
13 116.2 0.9 .3 111.9 1.5 1
14 116.3 1.0 .9 111.1 .7 .6
15 116.0 0.7 .6 112.3 1.9 2
16 115.8 0.5 .4 112.2 1.8 2
17 116.3 1.0 .9 113.0 1.6 1
18 116.5 1.2 1 111.8 1.4 1
19 115.7 0.4 .3 112.6 2.2 2
20 115.9 0.6 .5 112.7 2.3 2
Max Variation 1.2 1 2.4 2
Temp variance 68º~71º Humidity 58%


Conclusion

No form of volume based measurement will be dead on accurate. Smokeless powder is measured by weight, not volume, and any irregularity in metered charge density will cause inconsistencies in weight, regardless the use of: roller bearings, tight tolerance parts, fine resolution of adjustment, or shiny surfaces suitable for use as a shaving mirror. Spherical powder meters more uniformly because its small diameter, flat form, settles more uniformly in containers and does not typically shear when caught between the knife edges of the metering body and containing measure walls. Extruded powder, because of it's long tubular form, is frequently sheared during metering, which jolts the measure, disturbs the powder in the reservoir above, and causes it to settle to a higher density. This change in density is the basis for charge to charge variations. Double bumping at the top and/or bottom of stoke has essentially the same effect. I could add a grain or two to charges just by bumping the handle at either end of the stroke. Neither product threw charges that would be considered unsafe, however, neither would warrant operating at the ragged edge of maximum loads.

Within the useful application of a mechanical powder measure, there is virtually no difference between a $60 powder measure and one priced at $268. Both products will measure powder to the same relative level of accuracy and consistency, both will meter spherical powder more uniformly than extruded powder. I am not suggesting there is no value in more expensive equipment, just as I would not say there isn't a reason to purchase a Craftsman life time warranty ratchet over a store brand throw away product. The more expensive product, finished to better quality, containing roller bearings, and using better material will last longer and maintain it's level of consistency in metering charges. It's up to the buyer to decide if this is enough reason to part with the extra money. I honestly have never worn out an inexpensive powder measure, but then I'm not a heavy user of the equipment.

Thanks
Joe

quote:

A post further down mentioned lubricating drum load surface with graphite, I use furniture wax on my woodworking tool surfaces as a rust preventative, anyone ever use it on the drum for lubrication/smoothness of motion?

Yep. I thought Johnson's Paste Wax would be a great lube for the drum of my Uniflow. After a while it turned into a nasty hard gum that made the operating handle move like it was set in halfway-set cement. It was hard to remove, too. Stick to dry graphite.

Virtually all powders contain a graphite coating, making powder measures self-lubicating. Putting extra graphite on a powder measure is typically unnecessary.

I've been using one of the cheap Lee's for over 20 years. I built a stand for it that sets it up high enough to get long-action catridges under it when said cartirdges are in one of those Midway loading blocks that are about 1 inch or so in thickness. I have developoed a "stroke and tap" procedure that's become automatic after so many years. I smoothly (yet with some smartness) stroke the handle down, lightly tap the stand to compact the powder in the cylinder, stroke back up to dump the powder into the case, then tap again to ensure all powder is emptied out of the cylinder. I check the charge on my RCBS RangeMaster 750 scale every 25 dumps or so. It's always right on (tolerance is 0.10 grain for .223 reloads in my AR), so I see no need to buy anything new. I trickle-charge my 300WSM target loads, using the powder measure to get me about 0.50 grain below the desired charge. It works...

quote:

Originally posted by Ricochet:

quote:

A post further down mentioned lubricating drum load surface with graphite, I use furniture wax on my woodworking tool surfaces as a rust preventative, anyone ever use it on the drum for lubrication/smoothness of motion?

Yep. I thought Johnson's Paste Wax would be a great lube for the drum of my Uniflow. After a while it turned into a nasty hard gum that made the operating handle move like it was set in halfway-set cement. It was hard to remove, too. Stick to dry graphite.

I KNEW there had to be another woodworker into reloading!

I'll pass on that idea then...

I have been using an RCBS uniflow for 10 years.

It is great for ball powder and ok for stick.

800X, I give up.