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 When asked what rifles we have , Folks often answer " I have a 30-06 caliber rifle" or ".257 caliber rifle." Wouldn't the answer be more accurate to say "I have a 30 caliber rifle" They also refer to the ammo as caliber . Me thinks that often the word caliber is used instead of cartridge or used where no word should be there ( 30-06 rifle ). I always considered caliber and bore diameter to be the same ( 25 caliber, 30 caliber etc.). I'm open for an education here.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | ||
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You are right. The US Government defines "caliber" as " ammunition nomenclature". Everyone does it. We still understand what they mean. It don't matter. The real question is, does the term "Caliber" mean the bore or groove, or bullet diameter? | |||
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yes. the 303 is bore diameter, the 30 cals are bore diameter. the 308 win is groove diameter. 280 rem and 284 win same barrel diameters. pick which one you wanna use to name the cartridge when you design it. | |||
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Bart: You're open to an education - right. Me too ! Let's go back to the beginning step by step. Step one: There could be conceivably well over 5,000 different cases for hundreds of calibers beginning at possibly .14 to .70 in rifles an in shot guns 4 gauge up and beyond .410. Americans use the inches and feet system. Europeans use metric. 1. Americans have a tendency to abbreviate calibers. They neglect often to add the mandatory suffix of the developers name. We have a plethora of calibers and cartridges that defy logic. We could conveniently eliminate 90% of all cases and cartridges and still have an abundance to choose from. 2, Europeans use the metric system. They state the diameter of the bore or bullet in millimeters and the length of the cartridge too. To add to the mix we necessarily must add to list inclusive our ancestors nomenclature. This dates back to the old days prior to modern smokeless powders. i.e, black powders and pyrodites a synthetic. That old nomenclature referred to the loose and general bullet diameter, one of which was 45-70 i.e, 45 caliber 70 grains of back powder. Just in the last couple of days I had an incident here about the lack of specifics to identify. Rather than to make a big mess I side stepped the issue. I appreciate your asking. Again I'm schooling my grandson currently and this reminds me to be specific. | |||
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No Bart, you are not the only one. I'll add that you don't go into the store to buy a box of "calibers". You go in to buy a box of "cartridges"! Caliber is loosely the bore diameter. Cartridges is the ammo that fits the chambering. Period. Yet we hear all manner of things from supposedly smart folks. Zeke | |||
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Caliber does not mean a specific cartridge, UNLESS you are the US Government, in which case, it does. Or any of the firearm makers, which all use the term "caliber", to refer to which specific cartridge it fires. Or most shooters. So, everyone is guilty. And that is definitely not the end of it; if everyone uses it that way, words have a way of entering the English language. Which is already has, So what started out as meaning the diameter or quality of something, has now become something quite different. | |||
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bartsche, I'm in the same boat on a different oar....or is it paddle? Anyway, I agree with you. When asked "what caliber is that thing", (usually when referring to one of my drillings or combination guns), and I tell them 9mm or 9.3 or .446 or whatever I get a really dumb look. I'm being quite serious and then it occurs to me they mean "what cartridge". Even after answering that most still don't have a clue because they're nearly all old, obsolete and virtually unheard of in this country. DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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Boats use oars, canoes use paddles. Former Red Cross Water Safety Instructor. | |||
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Depends on what cartridge you are talking about. An -06 is an -06. A 270 is a 270 Win, if it's not a 270 Win you had better specify 270 Weatherby or whatever. A Roberts is a Roberts unless you specify Imp. It's basically a quick test to find out if the other fellow knows what he is talking about. If I'm holding an -06 and somebody asks what caliber it is, I'm going to tell them 308. If they ask what it's chambered for, they will get a different answer (06). If they don't know the difference it makes no difference to me. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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What do you put in block 30, ATF form 4473 with the heading "CALIBER"? If you don't put the actual cartridge, you are in trouble. And actually, the 30-06 caliber is .30; they went by the bore diameter in this case. Amusing and confusing. | |||
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I know. 50 year canoeist and 10 year sailor. It was said tongue in cheek. Few call a paddle an oar but lots call an oar a paddle. DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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Caliber is a diameter. Cartridge is an assembly that includes a bullet of a certain diameter or caliber. .30 is a caliber, not a cartridge. .30-06 is a cartridge, not a caliber. The older and more ossified in my ways I bcome the more missues of Caliber (or calibre) annoys me. Jerry Liles | |||
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Then be ready to be perpetually annoyed because it is Industry, and Government, and in terms of common use, pretty much standard lingo now. Caliber has come to mean, cartridge, at least in the US. | |||
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Oh no doubt. It's just an irritant and it isn't as bad as calling a cartridge a bullet (also in common usage). In my business precise language is important and confusing caliber and cartridge is imprecise and, therefore, an irritant. Jerry Liles | |||
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 Do you think the Marines will ever call a rifle a gun?  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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As an Army trainee in '67 at Ft. Polk the distiction between a rifle and a gun was made with a vengance. Still can't call anything under 20mm a gun unless it's a shotgun or machinegun. Jerry Liles | |||
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 Not every man who has a car is a mechanic! Most just use it to go from A to B. Same with guns, some are users and some are know-it-alls | |||
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Do we get to do Clip and Magazine next? How about Fuse and Fuze? | |||
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 Hmmmm !  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I really like this discussion. The English dictionary describes the correct meaning of calibre (correct spelling!) as being the diameter of the bore of a rifle BEFORE being rifled. Calibre started as the designation of the weight of a bullet in pounds, then bore diameter and now can be either bore diameter or bullet diameter. I prefer to see it describe only the bore diameter, this keeps things simple. There are few cartridge names that are correctly using their true 'calibre', 30-06, 30-30, 300 Win Mag are just a few. Also, when referring to calibre, it is a mistake to use a decimal point in front of the number, if you use .30 calibre, this would actually mean .003" in diameter. Cheers.  | |||
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Oops ! Ummmmm----- some thoughts: The spelling is correct both ways. It varies from country to country. The British is calibre. The North American is caliber. My spell checker software underlines calibre in red meaning correction is needed !!  The nomenclature used to identify, or describe, a guns barrel and bullet diameter is truly a sorry conglomeration of inconsistency and contradiction dating back centuries. If you will refer to Ken Howells book, custom cartridges, you will see that using the numeric component alone for one caliber *( Absent the mandatory suffix in numbers or words ) will show many examples of various case types, configurations, dimensions. Almost none of which are interchangeable. Further the numbers ascribed to calibers are often incorrect, misleading and confusing. Even more egregious are the various bullet dimensions from one caliber which can also vary. And even further to exacerbate the matter barrel diameters too exhibit variations and inconsistencies. Add to the mix the old and new mix of practices of co-mingle the groove diameter as the criteria and the old sometimes use of the ridges or lands as the bore. The decimal system has two components. Numbers to the left of the decimal - i.e., integrals or whole numbers and to the right of the decimal which are essentially portions of a whole number. The first number is tenths. The second hundredths, the third thousandths and the 4th ten thousandths. Micrometers and dial caliper's go to 4 places. Some are direct reading with slim lines and some are digital. *( With a display screen, electronic ). 30 caliber vs .300 vs 0.300 can get confusing and can be interpreted differently under certain circumstances. Ultimately the use of decimal calibers translates into fractions of numbers. In the case of a micrometer which goes only to one inch .300 is a fraction of that inch. To simplify: .250 = 1/4 inch. .500 = 1/2 inch. Thus .30 isn't 0.003. And 30 is way up there in the range of those cannons and big guns on battleships. *( Come to think of it 16" guns were the biggest I recall ).  Addendum: Decimal fraction conversion chart: http://www.marylandmetrics.com/tech/cvtchtfdm.htm | |||
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In artillery caliber (calibre) can mean the length of the barrel in multiples of the diameter of the projectile as in 5 inch 38 calibre naval gun. That is a 5 inch cdiameter projectile and a barrel 38 calibres long or 190". | |||
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At a local auction a rifle (Sako L-461) was sold as a .17 caliber. No other description was said and it was an auction containing a lot of custom chamberings. I think I was the only one to ask ..."what is the chambering"?....I was told it's a .17 caliber..... I truly suspect that it was an original .17 Remington.....but the gun was sold (and for well over $1,000) without the additional data. Rifle loonies understand this stuff....others only need to ask the right questions to be appraised of specific information. It's the same for a lot of subjects.....we don't need to know everything.....we only need to know when we don't know and ask someone that does. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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"Now, ya dont haff ta be born out in the sticks with an F-150 & a thurdy-ought-six... or have a Bubba in the family tree, to get on down with me..." B. Shelton  Our liberties we prize, and our rights we will maintain. | |||
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Ummmm, nah. Calibre is the correct spelling. Caliber is the American bastardization of the word. Same as Colour, color. However calibre can be spelt ca'liber 416 makes a good point with the decimal point but as I understand it. That is in modern talk we refer to the 30-06 as a 30cal or the 50BMG as a 50cal not a .30cal or .50cal. In correct terminology you are perfectly correct a 30cal would be 30inch calibre. Largest guns on an operational Battle ship were around the 18" mark on the Yamoto and her sister ship. From very hazy memory the last British battle ship to be built-HMSVanguard?- had experimental 21" guns fitted. | |||
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American "corruption" - Oh yeah, they are unequaled experts at that. But if you look back to the 16th century and time of Shakespeare with your British/English you may have some chore trying to deal with it. Now on the matter of cartridge and bullet nomenclature use of the 30-06 term, for example, I must hasten to point out, is a trap that the unwitting, uninformed, or inexperienced, can fall into easily and readily do with regularity. Notwithstanding my apparent death of posts here and not distant registration, I actually was among the first participants when this site first opened. I took a decade long hiatus and I am only back here again because my Grandson is coming onto the gun/reloading scene and I am schooling him as well as passing my firearms and reloading on to him. There has been lots of progress in the past decade so I am brushing up and catching up. Ken Howell wrote the book - "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges". I'm taking the following from his book, as written, verbatim: .30-06 Ackley Improved .30-06 Max M .30-06 Millin .30-06 Rimmed .30-06 Springfield In all of these the bullet diameter is .308". 30 caliber isn't technically specific. In each of these above illustrations the case is vastly different, in come cases, and there wouldn't be a maidens prayer of making one work in another. Thus I have posted here more than once that the COMPLETE description is necessary. That includes the suffix, that is the name or number following as each case may be. I get the impression here that the vast majority of posters are very experienced and very knowledgeable. So I'm not addressing them. My comments should only apply to our younger members who may be new at this or novices and aspiring enthusiasts. I'm pretty certain that the older Guys here would jump at the opportunity, and bend over backwards, to help out our young upcoming future generations, if given half a chance. | |||
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I generally say Winchester, Remington or Mauser.  Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Larry:  Very sharp ! | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by wetibbe: American "corruption" - I use the word "bastardization" as I am Aussie and we love the word "Bastard" as it has so many meanings and inflictions  | |||
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Here in the USA the folks who live out West send their kids East to be educated so they will learn to say "incredible" instead of "bull shix" | |||
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Inflictions or inflections? There is a difference. Whichever you mean reference the above word, the use of the word to describe a fatherless child is always profanity. DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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Depends on the conversation..If I asked a client what caliber rifle he is shooting and he said " a 30 caliber", I would consider him less than intelligent and bording on stupid and reply, "what kind of 30 dumb ass?, a 30 carbine, 30-30, 30-06, 30-03, 30-40 Krag, ,308, or 300 mag?" but if he said a caliber 257 Roberts, or a caliber 30-06 or even a 30-06 caliber or in about any form or manner it would answer my question. The idea is communication that one understands! and yes if he said a 257 Roberts or 30-06 Springfield, or just a 30-06 it would still be proper English IMO. Maybe we all have too much time on our hands and need to seek additional employment!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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IMHO 30-06 is not a caliber. Maybe the question would be less dumb assed if we asked "What cartridge will you be shooting?" rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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