I just started checking my loads to see what the runout was from case to bullet...WOW...my loads are crap!!! Help please...how do you seat bullets concentric?

The only way you know your loads are crap is when you shoot them......and then measure the groups.....

Throw away that device you have that checks runout.....and go to the range and test your ammo.

Hey ted

The biggest improvement I saw in runout reduction was switching to Lee Collet Neck Sizing dies. They just work and they are cheap. Try one and you'll have one for every calbier before long.

There is a Chinese fortune cookie fortune that comes in the box with a Sinclair concentricity gauge.

It says, ~You will probably find that the expander ball is the cause of the problem.~

The ways to get around the main problem, expander ball caused crocked neck:
1) Remove the expander ball and de cap some other way.
2) Remove the expander ball, resize, install the expander ball, expand on the compression stroke.
3) Use bushing dies.
4) Use dies with honed out necks.
5) Use Lee Collet dies.
6) Only use new brass.
7) Jam the bullet into the lands, so it is at lease concentric to the bore in the front.

There are tiny amount of run out caused by:
1) Seater dies
2) neck thickness run out
3) Bullet run out.
4) Dies made with multi step cutting


Remember, once the neck is crooked from an expander ball, the only fix is to fire it again.

Is your brass good after sizing and before seating? If the problem is in the seating process, there is help, but a sleeved seater like either a Forster seater or Redding's Competition Seater will go a long way toward resolving the issue.

The simple technique of rotating the case while seating the bullet in three steps may resolve your issue.

Another help is a deep chamfer with a VLD-style tool.
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Do a search of AR for "the Kraky method" it is THE way to get your dies set up to minimize runout, it is surprisingly straightforward, and surprisingly simple in concept, it just isn't OBVIOUS. I have found that using his method, all my dies produce good ammo at least, in terms of concentricity, and most produce SUPERB ammo.

quote:

The simple technique of rotating the case while seating the bullet in three steps may resolve your issue

Winchester 69's right on this one in my experience. I all but eliminated runout by seating each bullet in 3-4 steps, i.e., seat the bullet 1/4 the way, and lower the cartridge out of the seater die, rotate 1/4 turn and seat a bit more, etc. until completely seated. Works for me!

Ted, you got some excellent advice here... I'll add some of my own.... The easiest way to reduce runout is to use boattail bullets. The next easiest way is to not be too anal about runout. I always figure 50,000 pounds of pressure slamming that bullet into the throat, pretty much takes loaded cartridge runout out of the conversation.......... Grant.

The simple technique of rotating the case while sizing as well. Sometimes a cartridge may lie a bit loose in the chamber when being fired and this 'bends' the case. This case will now stand skew in the shell holder. The end result is maybe some runout as well as altered headspace. It also doesn't help with bullet seating - especially with bullet seating. So if mutiple strokes in the sizer can straighten a case, it will help but this only works for full length resizing.

I don't have a run-out guage but I have set a few loaded cartridges up in a lathe and measure with a dial guage. I was able to get zero measureable runout but that was without sizing and seating in a paper cup. The worst runout I have seen was caused by the seating die bumping the case mouth and iether bulging the case at the shoulder-body junction or bending the neck. (That wasn't done by me).

But I agree with vapodog. Loads are only bad if they don't shoot well.

I control concentricity and bullet/case run out by using Wilson Dies, or similar custom made dies. It works. I get extremely good accuracy with their use.

Don

The first thing to consider is whether your rifle is capable of makeing use of the POTENTIAL accuracy increase that is available when you produce the best possible rounds.
Vapodog is correct in that consistency on a target is the best test.

Personally, I've had it proven to me time after
time that segregated by weight components assembled into the most concentric round you are capable of produceing improved accuracy in a quality rifle.

There are many stories of somebodies Uncle Elmo produceing 1/2 MOA groups with his Lee Loader rounds fired in Uncle Hooties 30-30.

Good dies(Wilson,Forster,Redding) set up square in a good press will produce ammo that will allow a good rifle to show it's full potential.

You've already gotten some good info on troubleshooting your setup.

I can recommend Handloading for Competition by Glen Zediker if you really want to make yourself crazy with details.

One last thing, Some cases lack consistent wall thickness.
These cases will never produce a concentric round as the thin area generally runs from the neck to the base and when you size it the outside is round and when the expander or mandrel comes thru, the inside is round .
But never both at the same time.

Learning to detect them is Chapter Two of this tale.

Good Luck
Covey16

Your request indicates that the problem lies in the bullet seating process. While you have received information regarding both seating and sizing issues, verification of the specific problem would be helpful to our helping you.
.

quote:

Personally, I've had it proven to me time after
time that segregated by weight components assembled into the most concentric round you are capable of produceing improved accuracy in a quality rifle.

Does it make much difference in a 'standard' rifle? Let's just say I get an even triangle three shot group of 1 1/4" at 100m but a ten shot group will print two or three outside that 1" circle, opening the group to 1 3/4". (This same rifle's group would double at double the range). Could that be related to run-out or is it just a sum of inconsistancies? I was never happy with my bullet alignment but chose to live with it. After all, I never missed my target due to rifle accuracy problems - just bullet drop miscalculations.

All brass in the last couple days has been checked for concentricity before seating.

I tested several rounds this week from a couple of my best shooting rifles.

Bullets that had bad run out say .005 to .007 vs. the ones that ran .002 or better wasn't even close.

I shot some of the smallest groups of my life this week with the tight tolerance ammo and the ammo with the out of center/line bullets doubled the group size.

This is why I will check runout from now on.

I will be useing some of the tips given to me above and update later.

Is the tip of the bullet contacting the seating plug?
.

quote:

There is a Chinese fortune cookie fortune that comes in the box with a Sinclair concentricity gauge.

It says, ~You will probably find that the expander ball is the cause of the problem.~

More than likely!

Polish your expander ball and set it as high in the die as is possible (but be sure it is not within the neck of die) so that case is guided by the case neck (while within the die) as the expander is pulled through the neck. Also helps to use a dry lube inside neck such as Imperial dry neck lube.

Bullet runout is much more important to group size at longer ranges than @ 100 yds.

Regards,
hm

Sorry, double tap

quote:

I shot some of the smallest groups of my life this week with the tight tolerance ammo and the ammo with the out of center/line bullets doubled the group size.

Very interesting indeed! Do you also sort your cases by weight? Bullets vary too. How about variations in ogive, resulting in seating depth variations? Has someone just opened a can of worms?

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
[QUOTE] Has someone just opened a can of worms?

I realy wasn't trying to stirr anyone up just get them thinking. I hear people talking about the (FLYER) that ruined the 1/2" group they had started. I found out that that (FLYER) might be bad alighnment. (I know I know lots of other reasons but....)

Most rifles shoot bullets at excess of 180,000 RPM's (( 3000fps @ 9.5" twist = 227,000 for say 7 MAG )) an out of centerline condition will throw bullets off.

Listen... alot of you have a dremel tool or a 1/8" air grinder in your tools. These tools dont even come close to the RPM's a rifle produces. Consider a 160 grn. bullet mounted on a 1/8" shank and put in your tool....if the bullet runout is ZERO you will be able to turn on the tool and hold it steady....if the bullet runnout is just .005" it will eat you ALIVE!! when you turn it on.

I was just wanting to get some advice on how to seat bullets strait...and to be honest with all of my friends here on AR with the testing I have done this week IT DOES MATTER!!

Could this be a future test for Saeed?

As mentioned above, the following is what I've done and it works:

Sent sizer dies back to manuf. and had them hone to .002 less than loaded case.

Don't use expander.

Seat bullet in several steps, rotating case a little at a time with each seating motion. I found the more the better.

Curiously, my 270 AM seats the most concentric ammo I can manage with all at or less than .001, with most being about .0005

quote:

.... just get them thinking I hear people talking about the (FLYER) that ruined the 1/2" group they had started. I found out that that (FLYER) might be bad alighnment. (I know I know lots of other reasons but....)

.... excess of 180,000 RPM's .... an out of centerline condition will throw bullets off.

... dremel ... tools don't even come close to the RPM's a rifle produces ....

.... with the testing I have done this week IT DOES MATTER!! ...

Exactly! You got me thinking!

Next in line to run-out is going to be case capacity. Now surely seating depth will have a greater influence on capacity than case wall thickness? All it takes is a slightly different ogive and the seating depth will change .... Mmmm .... So how does one measure OAL when the lead tip is slightly deformed? This would be critical on a small capacity case like the hornet.

quote:

Sent sizer dies back to manuf. and had them hone to .002 less than loaded case.

Don't use expander.

I made a neck sizer for my 303 Brit exactly like that. It does work but it doesn't suport the case so I rotate the case during sizing. I also rotate the bullet during seating. (I haven't range tested those loads yet - I started loading unsized necks with my paper cup method but had a windy day at the range so I don't know about that one either - it makes no difference to the pressure. In the hornet, the paper cup gives lower pressure which allows for more powder and higher velocity with heavier bullets - that works!)

Ted, you are on the right track. At least you care enough to have the right tool to let you find the source of your run-out problems. And, yeah, as you have proven, it's worth the troble to do so. You got some really good advice above but let me add a few comments.
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TNEKKCC: The ways to get around the ...expander ball... crocked neck:" problem:

1) Remove the expander ball and de cap some other way. --- I USE A UNIVERSAL DECAPPER FOR THAT PART AND HAVE LYMAN "M" EXPANDERS. THE "M" DIE PUSHES IN, SO THE NECK HAS GOOD SUPPORT DURING EXPANSION. THE "M" EXPANDER HAS TWO DIAMETERS, ONE STEP IS JUST LARGER THAN BULLET DIAMETER SO THE BASE OF A BULLET HAS AN EASY ENTRY INTO THE MOUTH AND THAT REDUCES THE "COCKING" FORCE WHILE SEATING.

3) Use bushing dies. --- GREAT DIES, BUT THEY WORK BEST WHEN ALL NECKS ARE TURNED TO A CONSISTANT THICKNESS, OTHERWISE, NO. THINNING NECKS FOR FACTORY RIFLES ANY MORE THAN NECESSARY IS NOT A GOOD PRACTICE.

4) Use dies with honed out necks. --- THIS IS A VARIATION OF THE BUTTON SIZERS, IT CAN HELP BUT WON'T FULLY CURE THE PROBLEM AND CAN MAKE THE PROBLEM WORSE LATER IF YOU TRY TO USE THAT DIE WITH THINNER BRASS.

5) Use Lee Collet dies. --- THIS IS THE EASIEST WAY TO GET STRAIGHTER NECKS! IT ONLY NECK SIZES AND YOU HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO USE IT BUT IT'S WORTH THE EFFORT.
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We sure can't seat bullets straight in off-center necks so get a neck turner. It need not be an expensive BR model for use on our factory rifles.

I have and love a Forster "HOT-100" hand-held tool, it's inexpensive, has a carbide cutter and micro adjusts, it's very easy to use for cleaning up the highest 60-80% of the neck circumference. Any necks thinner than necessary to uniform them a bit only worsens the already sloppy factory chamber fit and that reduces the results we are trying to achieve.

After you get straight necks, get a good seater die. The Forster BR seaters, with or without the nice but not critical Micrometer head, are my choice. They are the least expensive option for a high quality seater.

The spring loaded sliding-sleeve design completely contains the case before the bullet even starts entering so everything is firmly held in a straight line, much like the hand dies BR shooters use. It's not quite BR good, it's made to factory tolerances you know, but it's the best seater design that can be used in a common loading press.

Redding has a nice copy of the Forster but it costs more and works no better.

I have used these SIZING and SEATING tools and methods for years now, it's reduced my average run-out to maybe a third of what it used to be and eliminated those occasional wild ones with run-out to as much as 9 thousanths.