The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Re: 7mm-08 Chronograph dataGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I vote for "just fun"!!! | ||
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Before that topic of the Nosler .284 120 gr BT came up by Steve Timm a member on 24hr by the name of Big Stick had been touting the use of the Barnes X 120 gr in the 7mm-08. I believe he moly coats his X bullets as they don't make a 7mm XLC in 120 gr. Much mention was made by Big Stick of breaking bones. One wonders if this was necessary or just fun. | |||
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I'm looking for some load data on the 7-08. I'm particularly interested in info on 18.5"--20" barrels backed up with chronograph info. I am thinking about using bullets in the 120 to 130 gr range. I have a friend who is getting slightly over 2900 out of a 18.5" Model 7 with 45 gr of 4064 with a 130 gr Speer boat tail. Does this sound feasible? | |||
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I was getting 2850fps with a 140gr Ballistic tip from a 22" barrel using 43gr IMR 4064. I would say that you friends loads are feasable, but as always back off 10% and work up. I am getting 2980fps with VV N550 from the same bullet & gun. This is chronograph data. These are warm loads, although 42.5gr 4064 is a published load from IMR. | |||
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im sorry but i have no chronograph info for these loads. they may give you good accuracy and the fps you desire. try if you like and good luck. 120 grain nbt 43 grains imr 4064 or 46 grains of imr 4350 120 grain hornady spire point 46 grains of imr 4350 7mm-08 22" match grade shilen barrel, model seven action. before customizing the gun it had 18 1/2" barrel on it. these shot good in it as well. check manuals to proof my info. im trying to remember the loads from memory. im not at my bench and near my notes. | |||
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Wildcat Junkie: How much VV N550 did you use to get 2980? What rifle were you using? Any pressure signs? How's the accuracy? Lou | |||
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Sierra gets 3000fps. with 42.5grs. IMR4064, 130gr. 26" bbl, figuring about 20fps loss per inch of barrel, or maybe less, that comes out to just under 2900fps, 45grs. sounds like a pretty hot load, but if he's not getting any pressure signs, have at it, me thinks he might be getting some though, sticky bolt, flat primers, etc. etc., Are you entertaining using this load in your 708? Like I said, Sierra has a hunting load of 42.5grs. of IMR4064, and a accuracy load of 42grs. AA-4064, Please work up to these loads in half grain increments, starting at about 40.5grs., Rem. primers, or CCI, Jay | |||
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Quote: Dr. Lou: Rifle is a M700DM Mountain Rifle with a 22" barrel. Results with VV N550
None of these loads are the most accurate loads in this rifle That would be either Federal premium w/140gr BT or 49grs Reloader 19 w/140gr BT. These 2 loads will shoot 1/2" or less @ 100yds but MV is in the mid 2700fps range. 46.5grs VV N550 and 47.5grs VV N550 w/139gr Hornady sst (non moly) will group @ about 1" @ 100yds. 48.5gr VV N550 groups well but starts to show (very slight)"wiping" @ the extractor area on the case head. Not hard bolt lift, but case heads seem to show that brass is starting to extrude @ that point. "Quickload" estimates maximum chamber pressure @ 47.5gr VV N550 @ just over 58,000psi. Load is slightly compressed (as I like em) @ 101.7% load density. This is my "Deer" load for this rifle. My 14yr old son made a one shot kill on a spike buck (his first) with this rifle and load in October. The shot was 35yds broadside right behind the shoulder. The buck ran 25yds, stopped, stood there for a few seconds and dropped right there in sight of the ladder stand.  So far he has not missed a shot @ game. He has scored on 1 Snowshoe (Hare) hunting on our farm and 2 pheasants and a chuker on a guided hunt, (I used 8 shots to get 1 pheasant and 1 chuker that day, he used 3)  and of course the deer I mentioned. He still hasn't beaten me @ skeet or sporting clays, but he's definately "breathin down my neck"  | |||
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wildcat: my 7mm-08 liked the factory federal prems in 140 gr. bt's too. shot well under an inch. this was with 18 1/2 inch pencil barrel in the model 7 stainless. i have not shot any since customizing the gun. | |||
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Thanks guys, I wasn't sure if I'd get info backed up by chrono. data or not. I was especially interested in the V-550 info. That would be my powder of choice if it will shoot in this particular rifle. Don't worry, I ain't gonna blow my head off. I know that 45 gr of 4064 is a hot load. I've got 40 years of experience, a pile of wildcats,and 10 years of benchrest behind me. I just have never had a 7-08. I like short actions and have been feeling a need for a 270 class cartridge. When I discovered the Speer .284,130 boat tail with a b.c. of .411 I thought that was fairly close if I could get it over 2900fps. I'm thinking about a Kimber Classic in 7-08. I've been gettin' tired of all the fiberglass and stainless. Thanks again! | |||
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Wildcat Junkie, thanks for the information. It will be very helpful. Lou | |||
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Quote: Hey knobmtn, Can't help you with the "chronograph data" because I've pretty much given up wasting my time with them. I just go for a SAFE MAX Load and then shoot the Load at distance to create an "honest" Drop Chart. And I can't help you with the "VV" Powders either. Quote: Now..., here I can help you - with lots of kill experience on our Southeastern Whitetails. The 120gr and 130gr Speer Hot-Cor bullets are darn near perfect for the 7mm-08 inside about 300yds. Nothing at all wrong with the 130gr Speer SPBT either, especially for ranges beyond 100yds. All this is based on a "clear and open shot" to the forward 1/3 of the Deer. If you might be faced with having to shoot through a row of Beans to reach the vitals, then the nod goes to the 140gr Partition. And, you wouldn't normally be taking a long shot "through the Beans" anyhow. Other than when having a thin row of crops in the way, the 130gr Speer SPBT is a top candidate for the "Best 7mm-08 Whitetail Bullet" ever made. It only has one little thing that tends to aggravate some folks. When it is Seated out REAL CLOSE to the Lands, there isn't much of it inside the Case-neck. I carry my cartridges in a plastic box and load the rifle just before entering the field. Never had a bullet problem due to the somewhat shallow Seating at all. No bullets falling out of the case and ZERO feed problems. If you think you might like the 120gr Hot-Cor, and you see some on the shelf, you might want to buy all of them. There is a good chance production might stop on them. Not due to "On-Game Performance", but sales volume. For what it is worth, in my 20" M7KS the best powder is H-414 for bullets ranging from 110gr-150gr. | |||
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I am getting 2960 fps out of the sierra 130 using 4064 powder in my handi rifle... it sure is a deer killer. 2 shots 2 dead deer.. no signs of pressure steve u | |||
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Hot Core, Thanks a lot for the words of experience on the Speer 130 gr boat tail. For whatever its worth, I've shot a truckload of deer here in Pa. with a .243. Been doing it for over 30 years. The deer were all shot with Nosler Partitions. I've never lost one and almost all were one shot kills, and most dropped on the spot or with a few feet. Most of them were shot with the 85gr and a few with the 95. Back before I could get the lighter ones I used the 100 gr. My powder of choice has always been H414. But if that doesn't work I go to 4350 then 4064 or 4895. I found the 414 would give me 100fps more than any other powder in that case. I'm currently shooting the 95 out of one Model 7 at 3050 and the 85 gr out of another Model 7 at 3150. But I don't try and shoot through anything with that cartridge. So I doubt if I would with the 708. I'm not sure that the 140 partition would do what I want it to do in the 708. So I was thinking about that Speer with the high bc. Its just that the deer are getting bigger here in Pa and I'm hunting more in the open where the shots can be longer. Again, thanks for the comments on the Speer. Take a look at those Vitavouri powder, though. I'm finding even more velocity with the 500 series in the 308 based cases than H-414 gives. Do you think the Model 7 KS has a long throat for 140 grainers? knobmtn | |||
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Quote: Hey knobmtn, I've had some fine hunting with the 243Win using those same 85gr, 95gr and 100gr Partitions. My current Load is with a 90gr Speer Hot-Cor and a SAFE MAX load of H-450(which Hodgdon has discontinued). The 90gr Hot-Cor was specifically developed for the original 6mmRem which had the twist a bit too slow to stabalize 100gr bullets. I tried the 90gr Hot-Cor out of curiosity and am very happy with it. As with the 95gr and 100gr Partitions, I normally get Exits when placed just behind the near shoulder so the bullet goes out the off-side shoulder. ... Pulled the M7KS records and I do have some data from back when the rifle was fairly new. The information is for a "single bullet" pulled from a box and placed in the Chamber to Kiss-the-Lands. Distance is from the face of the closed Bolt to the Bullet Tip, or what people often refer to as MAX-OCL. With some of the Bullets the "limiting factor" when it comes to Seating will be the M7 magazine's 2.8" opening. Bullet...KtL in inches Nosler 120SB....2.790 120BT....2.815 140BT....2.825 140P.....2.795 150P.....2.820 Speer 120H-C...2.715 130H-C...2.720 130SPBT..2.750 145H-C...2.730 145Match.2.825 145GrSlm.2.715 As you look at that data, you can see the slightly "less" streamilned profile of the Speer bullets allow you to Seat them out so you can "Kiss-the-Lands" and still function through the magazine. Sometimes it is an advantage and sometimes you still need to Seat them Off-the-Lands for the best accuracy. Pick a different bullet from the boxes and of course the KtL distance will change slightly due to the Overall Bullet Length being a bit different or due to the Tip shape. Once I know the KtL distance, I Seat that specific Bullet in a Case to that Length, lock the Seating Stem in place on the Seating Die and then measure the "Overall Seating Die Length"(OSDL). That OSDL is then written on the box of Bullets it came from and I remeasure OSDL everytime I open a new box of Bullets. You remeasure to compensate for a receeding Throat as well as changes to the Bullet design during manufacturing. The advantage to this is if I want to Seat Bullet "Z" 0.030" Off-the-Lands and I know the OSDL for it is 4.150". Then I pre-adjust the Seating Die to 4.120" OSDL, screw it into the Press and take off Seating Bullets. ... As far as accuracy potential goes, the 130gr Speer SPBT is very accurate in my 7mm-08. The 140gr Partitions are not quite as accurate in it. But, those same 140gr Partitions will "overlap" 2-shot groups in my 7mmRemMag(when my concentration is in the "ON" mode). So, you just never know what a specific rifle will shoot the best until you get a lot of Trigger Time with it. Best of luck with the 7mm-08, it is a fine Deer cartridge with a lot of excellent Deer killing Bullets available for it. | |||
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Hot Core, Thanks again for some real useful info. I've been flirting with that 90 gr Speer. I have one 243 that won't shoot partitions. I usually shoot for the base of the neck or the front shoulder. I cut up my own deer so I always get an autopsy report. I've always got a lot of devastation for some few inches in from the entrance usually including some important internal stuff and the base of those partitions has ALWAYS exited somewhere on the far side from the entrance. Would you think I can get the same performance from the 90 gr Speer? Those KtL measurements on the 708 in your KS are great info. My benchrest rifles taught me the importance of seating depth. I do the same thing in a slightly different manner. I get a KtL about the same as you do. The ogive of the bullet is what hits the lands. If you have a way to check the individual bullets in a box you will usually find that the ogive to base measurement differs by some few thousandths. Sinclair international makes a cheap comparator that used with a dial caliper that will measure the ogive to base of bullet dimension. It will also measure the ogive to base of loaded round dimension. I use a Wilson straight line bullet seater to seat bullets in any rifle that I am trying to get accuracy from. Its easy to check that the seating depth remains constant with the Sinclair tool. It looks like a hex nut. See if this link for the particular page in the Sinclair site works for you. http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?query=bullet%20conparator&template=&searchfields=&limitcategory=&type=store&category=search&orderby=INVENTORY%2Ebrand%2CINVENTORY%2Emodel&match=&template=&searchtype=&start=24 Thanks again,,,knobmtn | |||
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I used Sierras 130gr with 43grIMR4064 and chroned it to 2850f/s . The rifle used had a 20" heavy Barrel and the precision was good >20mm at 100m | |||
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The Remington 120 grain HP factory load averaged 2,920 fps out of my Rem M-7 an its 18.5" barrel. I was getting 2,870 out of the Speer 130 sp HotCore again with the 18.5". This is a great deer bullet that gets little recognition. Never shot a deer with the 130 gr. boattail, all the test I ran on this bullet showed it was losing its core in wet phone books. Maybe I'll have to give this one a try. I'm sure this bullet is not a HotCore. Nosler 140 gr. Ballistic Tip was getting 2,680 out of my Model Seven. This is an awsome deer stopper. The lower velocity really helps the Ballistic Tip. I've also read on other post that the 120 gr. ballistic has a little thicker jacket, might ought to try this one as well. | |||
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Quote: Hey knobmtn, I've killed fewer Deer with the 90gr Speer Hot-Cor(maybe 2 dozen or so) than I have with the 95gr and 100gr Partitions. So far, at the distances and the angles I've used them, they "nearly" always Exited. I remember one shot in particular where the Buck was facing me and as he lowered his head I centered the withers. The angle caused by me being (maybe) 70yds away and 16' up in a tree resulted in about 6"-7" of total spine destruction. ZERO meat loss as long as you don't count the 0.243" bullet hole.  I don't remember recovering any of the bullet, but the lungs were destroyed, so that may have been due to "secondary missle fragments" from the bone.... I have one of those Sinclair "Bullet Comparitors" you mentioned. They are well made and I used it a good bit at one time. Now that I use the OSDL, I rarely bother to check. By the way, for those of you that don't have the Bullet Comparitor, you can get by fairly well using a "socket" out of your tool box to do the same thing. Check both the SAE and Metric sockets and use the largest one you have that will not slip "past" the Bullet's Ogive. Of course, be sure to write the socket size you used on the box of Bullets. | |||
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Quote: Hey chrome, I do agree with your assessment of the 130gr Hot-Cor - just excellent. You are correct that the 130gr SPBT is not a Hot-Cor. If you look back at my post, you will notice I mentioned I "prefer" using it beyond 100yds. As you mentioned on the BTs, the "lower velocity" at distance also allows the 130gr SPBT to retain it's integrity a bit better. Also agree with you on the 140gr BTs - they are great 7mm-08 Deer bullets. Only "minor complaint" I have about any of the BTs is the additional cost. No doubt they are accurate and I often use BTs to Benchmark a new rifle. But if I can kill Deer just as well with a good old Hot-Cor, a Speer SPBT, Hornady Interlock, etc, then I'll use them. For what it is worth, the only problem I ever had with either the 120gr Hot-Cor bullets or the 120gr BTs in my 7mm-08 was a lot of "Bloodshot Meat" - if the shots are up close. Generally got Exits with both styles, so they are tougher than some folks give them credit for. I'd step up in bullet weight if I was hunting heavier Deer, but they do fine on our "occasional" 175-180# Southeastern Deer. | |||
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"By the way, for those of you that don't have the Bullet Comparitor, you can get by fairly well using a "socket" out of your tool box to do the same thing." Hot Core, Where were you 10 or 12 years ago when I needed you? I racked my brain; I was drilling holes in everything from sheet steel to hex nuts and never could find anything that suited me to make that measurement with. Never thought about that socket trick. Works fine. Do I take it that your 2 favorite bullets for the 708 are the 120 gr Speer Hot Cores and the 120 gr Ballistic Tip? Thanks for all the great info. knobmtn | |||
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Quote: Back off at least 10% and start up. I have some loads (from a while back, from the Reloder's digest) where they test the 7mm-08 with compressed loads of (get this!!!) RL 22  !!! They were getting 2700 fps with a Hornady 162 BTSP. Awesome. When I had a 7mm-08 I tried them. They worked fine!  | |||
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Quote: Hey knobmtn, Well......., out killing Deer on a couple of old Plantations that had 24/365 Predation Permits. I wish I could give credit to the guy that told me about the "socket", but it has been w-a-y too long ago. Quote: No, I prefer to 130gr Hot-Cor and the 130gr Speer SPBT over the 120gr bullets. I do know they work well though, cause I used a good many of each to see if they were good enough to "recommend" for use on Deer. For a person just beginning to hunt or for a person with a health problem that dictates reduced recoil, I can recommend them in good conscious. And, I would still recommend against shooting them through a row of Beans/Cotton. If I know the potential for a HUGE Trophy Buck is available and I had to use the 7mm-08, then the 140gr Partition or the 145gr Grand Slam would be in the rifle. Nothing at all wrong with the 7mm-08, but I normally carry something a bit larger if I know for sure I'll be in TROPHY Territory. I just don't shoot at the aft 2/3 of Deer, so a lot of good old Standard Grade Bullets do fine for 95% of my hunting. And occasionally, a BIG Trophy will mess up and allow a shot. Here, a bit more weight than the 120gr bullets is very helpful. ... Just sitting here trying to think of a Deer kill that would put it in perspective for you. Ahh yes... I had seen a HUGE TROPHY Buck working a section where we had 4 Stands. Never was in the correct Stand at the right time, but I was carrying the 7mmRemMag with 140gr Partitions - just in case. Had a call that some young "hunters" might be on the property, so I took the 7mm-08 with the 120gr Hot-Cor bullets that day. As things often happen, the young`uns didn't make it. But I went right on to the fields anyhow with the 7mm-08 and decided on going to the "Honey Bee Stand". The Rut was on in early November and we had a FULL Moon at night. Over the years we've noticed the BIG Boys tend to party all night under the FULL Moon and sleep in late. Then they make their "Scrape Checks" a few hours each side of noon. Got all settled in and saw a bunch of Does that morning. Real tempted to put at least one down, but that HUGE Trophy was on my mind. Right at 10AM a single Doe walks out of the woods 250yds to the East of me and onto the edge of a large disked corn filed. Almost took her out, but as I watched her in the scope, she looked back in the woods and gave a small Tail Wag. Huuummm, time for the 10x50 Wind Rivers. Got them up and as I focused "into" that set of woods, I spotted a single TALL Tine barely moving. Knowing a Buck was there, I kept watching and sure enough it was a nice Buck. He wanted her to come into the woods and she wanted him to step out. So, he raked the ground, bushes and tree limbs with his front legs and his antlers numerous times which threw grass and stuff all around. He even came out of those woods once into the field. But, just as he did an Acorn, which soulded like it was the size of a Bowling Ball, landed on the roof of my Stand. And right back in those woods he went without stopping. Finally, the Doe eased into the woods and they enjoyed a bit of Romance. Afterward, he was really full of himself and began strutting around. All of a sudden, he froze and curled his lip "flemming" to see what he was smelling. I believe he simply smelled where the Doe "had been" and not another Doe in heat. But, it was enough to cause him to ease up toward the woods edge. He was still screened by a small bush real close to him that a 140gr Partition would have plowed right on through, but I had the 120gr Hot-Cor in the rifle. It was now 10:40AM. Eventually he eased one more step forward with his front legs slightly elevated from his rear legs and was absolutely perfectly straight toward where I was 230yds away. I was already lined up and turned a 120gr Hot-Cor loose. Here came the Doe and the Buck right behind her. He wasn't running w-i-d-e open hugging the ground, but was moving at a rapid pace. I expected him to drop, but he didn't. I said, "Hey." and he kept coming. Yelled, "HEY!" again and he was still coming. Noticed a post going up to the roof in the way to my right and had to reposition the rifle on the other side of it. YELLED ONCE MORE, "HEY!!!!" and he didn't break stride. I really don't like shooting at moving Deer. But he had crossed about 200yds of open field and I had to take a second shot. When I shot and recovered, I couldn't see the Deer and figuredit had made it to the woods I was in. Thought a good bit about "the Bullet" while going down the ladder. Walked down the old logging road and kept watching the edge of the field, cause I never heard him make it to the woods. Not that I would have, but I was hoping he was down in the field. Sure enough, he was in the tracks of my truck where I'd gone out in the field to get a few Doe previously. This one was a 12-pointer and only about 170#. NOT the BIG ONE< !--color--> I'd seen working this area, but a darn nice Deer. The second 120gr Hot-Cor went shoulder-to-shoulder and Exited from about 85yds,which certainly spoke well for it. But, where did that first one go? Got it on the Skinning Rack and opened him up - head down. As I zipped open the Gut Sack, there was the Bullet setting atop the rear of the sagging intestines as if I'd placed it there. It was a perfect "picture quality" mushroom and had 90gr left for a 66% weight retention after going through about 4' of "soft" Deer. Now, as we looked the Deer over real close, the Bullet went in just above the Heart and directly "between" the lower portion of the Lungs. No doubt he would have eventually died, but I doubt that I would have recovered him "IF" he had gone any other direction. 1. Had that been the 140gr partition, it "might" have Exited through the center of the Hip Bone that holds both Rear Legs in alignment and "probably" would have flipped him. 2. Had it been either 130gr Speer, it "might" have Exited, or cracked that bone. 3. Or(and this is the strangest part), if I'd placed the shot just 1"-2" away, in ANY direction, the Deer would "probably" not have made it across the field. ... So, even though the 120gr Hot-Cor and 120gr B-Tip will kill Deer in a 7mm-08, the 130gr Speers just give you a bit more Expendable Energy. And the 140gr Partition certainly has it's place as well. In fact, it is no secret at all that the smaller a caliber you use on Deer size Game, the better the Bullet Design needs to be - for consistently clean, one-shot kills. I hope that example helps you understand my position a bit better. | |||
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Hot Core said: Quote: My kind of guy  I left mine at home for 5 years, but I just started taking it to the range. The guys on the internet want to know how many fps, but the number doesn't do me any good. I can tell what is more powerful from the recoil in pistols and the point of impact at 200 m with rifles. I would like to say that I don't care how many psi of fps, I just look at the brass, look at the target, and feel the recoil. Anything else is taking leave of the senses. But I spent more time on the computer than at the range  | |||
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Hot Core, I've really enjoyed this thread. You have a great ability to communicate your experience in an understandable fashion. Thanks for the insight. Quote: "In fact, it is no secret at all that the smaller a caliber you use on Deer size Game, the better the Bullet Design needs to be - for consistently clean, one-shot kills." That's the reason I have always used partitions in my 243's. I was kinda afraid to get away from them. But you sure can explain things in a manner that I understand. Maybe its the skinnin' and cuttin' we've both done. knobmtn | |||
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Speer lists 45.0 grs IMR4064 and their 130 gr 7MM at 3065 fps in a 24 inch bbl. A 5.5 inch bbl cut will loose you a max of 140 fps, so a bit over 2900 is feasible. | |||
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Quote: Hey knobmtn, May be!! I really enjoy it when we can talk folks into bringing a new generation of young hunters afield. Back when I first started Deer hunting, I was issued a "Drag Stick" by my Elders. They said I'd need it a lot if I just paid attention to what they told me. Well, they were right..... I got to drag a whole lot of Deer for them Also got to help a lot of other folks I've met over the years with their kills. One thing I do enjoy is going to the local Processor after a day of hunting and watching what the folks bring in. A few friendly questions about the caliber, bullet, distance of the shot, where they were aiming, what was the reaction of the Deer after the shot and angle to the Point-of-Impact always open folks up. And if asked in a non-hostile way, they occasionally realize they could have taken a better shot or passed on one. If I never kill another Deer(HAHAHAHA), I've already killed more than my fair share. Always nice to get afield and just watch nature go about it's normal routine - with me dragging a Deer(hopefully my own). ... Hey Clark, Once folks really understand what a chronograph does, instead of what they "think" it does is a real eye opener. Then couple that with the variations in each individual firearm which can create wide differences in "Velocity" from the exact same Load, and they get to the same point of understanding where you and I already are. | |||
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Hey Hot Core, Take a look at www.northforkbullets.com and check out there 130 gr. sp in 7mm. A little exspensive but we get that nice 130 weight and partion like penetration. I might give them a try? | |||
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Hey chrome, There is a fellow who posts on this Board by the name of Pat Hurley. He is one of the guys who speaks from lots of experience and he speaks VERY HIGHLY about the North Fork Bullets. I've not used them myself, but from what Pat says, they are as good as any Premium Bullet made and better than most. He also says they are accurate to boot. Lots of excellent Bullets available for us today. ... For those of you who never got to read Gary Sciuchetti's article in Handloader a few years ago, "rukidnme" found a Link to it: www.seahook.com/bestbullet.jpg It will take you some time to go through it, but you sure won't be wasting your time. Without a doubt it is the VERY BEST article on Bullet Impact Performance that has ever been released to the general public. | |||
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The 7mm-08 will be more effective than the 243 on deer. That's pretty much a given. However, in my experiance, none of the regular cartridges give both complete penetration and a lot of shock. I include the 7mm RM and the 30-06 in this group with normal bullets. One can go to the South Carolina deer study for this data. www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/ballistics/game_study.html What this study fails to ask is what deer were hit and lost with various cartridges. In my experiance the .358 Winchester with the right bullets will be the most consistant of these cartridges. I have never had an animal go over 40 yds no matter what. None have got up either after going down. Others report that extreme velocity cartridges will really keep them down such as the Weatherby's. Since I have not used them I leave that to others. | |||
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