I have five bolt-action rifles in 6.5x55,7x57(2),.30-06 and 8x57 that I built from military actions and barrels. Without exception, each rifle achieves its optimum accuracy after 15+ rounds. If I clean the bore thoroughly, the accuracy is fair until I get up to about 8-10 rounds. I run a wet patch followed by a dry patch through the bore every 20 rounds and maintain best accuracy. There are copper fouling streaks in the barrels, but each gun shoots sub-moa groups. The barrels all slug out to spec.

I read everywhere that you must have a spotless barrel to shoot best groups, but I just don't see it. Has anyone else had this experience or know why this would be so? Is this barrel cleaning frenzy just a bunch of jive kicked up by the purveyors of barrel cleaning products?

Bobster:

I have several off the shelf rifles. All of them shoot better dirty. 2" clean. 10-60 rounds start making near MOA or better. Then I notice a slight degradation in accuracy. I'm at a loss as to how to explain it. I'm curious to see what others have to say.

Paul Barnard

My Ruger .338WM (stainless) shoots better form a clean barrel. In fact, when the pattern starts opening up at the range, all I have to do is to clean the rifling to go back to normal.

Every rifle I have or have had has always done better with a slightly fouled bore.

Before I take any out for serious shooting, be it target or game, I run three round through the barrel before starting...

...and then do a complete cleaning when done.

Point of impact typically changes from clean to dirty, then you reach a level of dirty where things don't change much any more. I never hunt with a clean barrel, always fire a few rounds on arrival at a camp to check sights and get the barrel dirty. You pay for your accuracy with increased wear, but nothing is free.

Tom

The main reason that *any* rifle, not just a factory rifle will shoot better fouled is this:

The 90 degree angles of the lands and grooves must be rounded out with fouling to provide a good bullet to bore seal.

If your barrel is totally spotless, gasses will leak around the bullet as it moves through the bore. After a few fouling shots, these corners (as well as tool marks and pits) will fill with fouling and provide a good seal for the gas behind the bullet.

If you think about it, any rifle worth its salt would have to shoot dirty, since fouling begins building up after the very first shot.

The normal state of the bore is fouled, and load development progresses and is completed with a fouled barrel.

The best approach is to try to keep a level of what I call "conditioning fouling" in your bore. Don't remove the copper after every shooting session--in fact don't bother with it at all until you notice a degradation in accuracy.

The majority of fouling will build up in the first 8 to 10 inches of the barrel (just in front of the chamber). It's often hard to see just how bad this fouling is. If you'll hold the rifle with muzzle pointing into a bright light, and look through the chamber end, you can often see hard deposits built up in this area. You can also feel these deposits if you run a tight, dry patch through the bore. Extensive cleaning is often needed to remove these accuracy robbing deposits.

However, for routine cleaning, Hoppe's number 9 will do all that needs to be done. It gently removes the powder fouling, and a fair amount of copper if you soak it overnight.

I hope this helps...

Dan Newberry
green 788

Has any of you guys got a sollution for completely removing all the copper build up in my barrel . After years of shooting I clean ,my barrel with oil soaked patches until they come out clean . Every 100 rounds or so I will remove copper fouling with M98 bore cleaner. this is a amonia based solvent but does not get rid of all the fouling . The build up is getting real bad now, any suggestions will be appreciated .

Regards
Rudie

It seems like the more of Dan's posts I read, the more we disagree.

quote:

---

Originally posted by green 788:
(1)The main reason that *any* rifle, not just a factory rifle will shoot better fouled is...

(2)The normal state of the bore is fouled, and load development progresses and is completed with a fouled barrel.

(3)The best approach is to try to keep a level of what I call "conditioning fouling" in your bore. Don't remove the copper after every shooting session--in fact don't bother with it at all until you notice a degradation in accuracy...

---

1. Not all rifles shoot better with fouled Bores. If yours does, then you need to clean it REAL well, continue with your Load Development(different bullet, different powder, etc.), rebarrel or trade.

2. TOTALLY WRONG! Final Load Verification should be done with 1-shot groups from a cold, spotlessly clean, lightly greased Bore. This is the exact condition the Bore should be in while hunting.

3. Excellent idea "IF" - you wanted PITTED Bores.

Here is how it works. The steel of the barrel becomes slightly separated from the copper by Powder fouling. This happens in multiple non-linear layers, but for the point of this discussion, just visualize in your mind a single layer of copper laying atop powder fouling on top of the steel of the Bore.

Next up we introduce "moisture" into the barrel either from plain old Humidity, good old rain, sweat or the complexity of condensation created by rapid temerature changes. The moisture is your electrolyte that fires-up the battery. Two dissimilar metals plus electrolyte is a Battery.

The "electrolyte" migrates between the copper and steel creating a small "Battery". As the Battery begins to generate a minute charge, the ions of the steel transfer to the copper. At first, it creates a roughness and eventually creates a Pit.

Once the electrolysis begins, the only way to fix the Pit is to have the barrel re-bored to a larger size or put on a new barrel.

Then the question comes up about how quickly the Battery begins to function. No way to give an answer other than to say as soon as all the elements come together, the Battery starts. The quicker you stop it, the less Pitting will occur. Of course, it is best not to let it start in the first place.

So, if you are a fan of "Pitting", follow Dan's recommendation.

Otherwise, clean and lightly grease the barrel every time it gets shot.

I don't clean a bore much, I will run a bore snake thourgh them every 30 rounds until they start opening up. Then I will clean them with Wipe Out.....

rudie,
Wipe Out in your barrel for 5 or 6 hours will take out all the copper fouling, if not do it one more time...oil and put away....or just finish with Barnes X cleaner....then oil and put away.

I have never seen a bore shoot well perfectly clean, nor is that practical, as you would have to clean with Wipe Out betwee each shot....

I suggest shooting until accruacy goes then clean and I wouldn't worry about pitting too much, some of the most accruate barrels I have are pitifull to look at and they shoot under an inch...My double is pitted and shoots and inch at 50 and 100 with irons, I have a 30-30 that's horrible and it shoots as well as my double...My 404 is frosted and it shoots an inch...

I gave up on what makes a barrel accurate, it just is or it isn't and the rest is a gunwritters imagination running wild with theroy....hype is legal in the world of gundom....It's a theoretical nightmare, of little substance and a lot of wishfull thinking....

The big bore/long range shooters I know all say you need to "foul" the bore for best accuracy, and to make that first shot hit at your point of zero.
How much depends on the barrel. I've got two custom barrels that shoot very well, and very close - less than a half inch from a clean oiled bore. Most barrels I've shot don't. They can be off zero by as much as 3 inches @ 100 yds.
Some of mine, past and present, required as many as six rounds to shoot best. All of them, however, shot into their zero point after one round.
I've hunted for many years with fouled bores. I've never had one pit. Maybe they would if I left them that way for a while in truly moist, warm environments - I tend to hunt dry climates. E

Bobster: I've heard the reason your guns shoot like they do is that when they were in service, the bores got cleaned with whatever guys had on hand (or in the field) for a cleaning solution. Hint: it's something you always have with you wherever you go and is easy to apply to a patch or brush.

Most of my guns fire better fouled. In fact, in many years of shooting I have only found that powder fouling hurts accuracy. I haven't touched a bore for copper cleaning in years, and most (those that are not worn or wearing out) shoot as good or better than when new, and I'm talking 1/2 moa or better rifles. I just don't believe all the hooha about copper fouling,EXCEPT that comment made above about contributing to corrosion, if in a wet climate. But even then I have several that were purchased used with some corrosion and shoot well also. I put the copper fouling myth up there with the so called "break in" procedures.

One important point, if you are fouling your bore prior to a hunt, make sure you are shooting those fouling shots with a dead cold barrel, especially with magnums. Even a warm barrel can shoot a slightly different point of aim than dead cold. My experience tells me that the first cold shot will be different in impact from the second, tird, etc, even if slightly fouled already. This is true for my out of box remingtons, or high dollar customs (although less so). It may be only a small difference, but it matters in the confidence I have before taking the shot.

My experience has been the same as Ray's and Eremicus.With the exception of one rifle all my guns shoot best with fouled bores.I have had a couple of rifles that shot eceptionally well with ruff and pitted bores.I don't have a clue as to why and really don't care.

Paul K

Hot core:

You may be technically correct, but in practical terms it just won't work. You would have to clean between every shot. I don't know of anyone, including most bench rest shooters that shoots for record or group, that doesn't foul the barrel first with a sighter or two. I wonder how the high power shooters who usually shoot at least 60 shots on a course without cleaning manage? Most hunters follow some variation of the above and, if they are shooting at longer ranges will foul the barrel. It is a very rare barrel that will put the first shot out of a squeaky clean bore, much less one with oil or some rust preventitive in it, into the same spot as the next and the next. Ergo, to duplicate bore conditions and repetitive accuracy, it must be fouled to some extent

The real explanation lies wit temperature rise and harmonics. Sorry, we are full of "unexplained" myths regarding this issue, seems people like more the fouled bore theory...

Best regards, Gustavo

Well, I have to say I'm mostly in Hot Core's camp.

My rifles aren't particularly unusual and I have as many that will put the first shot into a group from a cold, clean barrel, as those that won't.

The reason competition shooters foul a bore is for consistency. Obviously the first shot has no powder fouling which would be necessary for any and all subsequent shots to maintain some semblance of consistency for the projectile through the bore. If you COULD clean between each shot you would have consistency. You can't. The biggest factor for that first shot is the TEMPERATURE of the barrel, not necessarily the fouling in it. Some cold but fouled barrels will also print a shot on different parts of the target.

The easiest way to test this "theory" is to dedicate one target at each range session for each first shot from a rifle. Fire the shot and put the target away for the next session. You can test from a barrel whether cold and clean, or cold and fouled. Over several range sessions you will learn what a particular rifle will do and whether the fouling affects shot placement versus squeaky clean. Some do, some don't. The first shot, fouled or clean, is invariably significantly lower in velocity than any subsequent shots when the barrel has been warmed up. Even cleaning won't cool it down to the same extent as sitting overnight, unless you are in subzero weather. And in spite of lower velocity, the increased barrel time of that slower shot CAN put it into the group.

As for leaving copper in a bore, I totally agree with Hot Core. And to say that some pitting is "acceptable" is ridiculous. Pitting WILL be caused by the simple laws of physics in the electrolysis that is set up by the disparity in metals. You'll never see competition shooters with expensive barrels leave copper in a barrel.

After acquiring a bore scope some years back, not only did I find my tested and "proven" cleaning methods were inadequate, but I learned how to easily and completely clean a barrel. Amazing the difference in accuracy for the first shot when the barrel is squeaky clean versus what we "think" is clean. When you leave copper in a barrel, like metals will gall. More copper will be left on whatever is there. At some point that will be too much.

I firmly believe the only rifles which benefit from fouling are the relatively very rough factory barrels. The fouling serves to pave the and smooth the roughness. Polished custom barrels certainly don't benefit but the fouling is necessary only for the consistency it provides for subsequent shots.

I think Gustavo's conclusion is brief and accurate.

Bob338,

Thanks for a better reply! It's amazing to see how many people out there do not take the time to analyze things and see what factors plays the game.

Regards, Gustavo

BTW, Bob's suggested routine will put a perspective from where to draw LOGICAL conclusions. More than enough!

Gatogordo,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. A recent USMC study (done for the benefit of USMC snipers) came to the same conclusion.

And it's also true that the BR folks foul their bores before shooting for score.

It's good to be right!

Dan Newberry
green 788

From an article in the 8/02 American Rifleman by G. David Tubb "A Champion's Tips for Accuracy":

"Even at a one-day event elsewhere we're going into the 600-yd. stage after having put 66 rounds through the barrel. Accuracy deterioration from fouling is an issue, and can be a problem. MoS2 (moly) coated bullets have become an advantage for me in this regard. Not only does my rifle shoot better for a much longer time, but I find that my return to zero requires fewer shots after a cleaning. With uncoated bullets there was always some number of rounds necessary to "season" the barrel. Using coated bullets I know my rifle will shoot its best at the end of the day, any day."

End quoted text. Bold emphasis by me.

Since Mr. Tubb has forgotten more about accuracy in rifles than most of us will ever know, I think his idea that a barrel needs "seasoning" after a cleaning might carry some weight.

Gatogordo,

Thanks for the Tubbs info.

I think what may be happening here is a simple misunderstanding of what constitutes a "fouled" bore. Hotcore will clarify his statements when his wife lets him out of the cellar... Just kidding HC!

It should go without saying that powder fouling and copper build up begin accumulating on the *first* shot from a clean bore. And fouling of course continues to build as more shots are fired.

The best load for a rifle which was intended to be used for long strings of fire would be the load that shot best with the fouled bore, and it would follow that load development should commence not with a squeaky clean bore, but with one which is fouled with a few shots.

I'm not an obsessive cleaner. I used to be, but have since encountered a lot of credible information indicating that many rifle barrels are damaged more from excessive (and improper) cleaning than from actual use. This isn't to say that Bob 338 and Hotcore don't clean properly--I can tell from their language that they probably know how to clean their rifles, and I'm guessing that their equipment is more sophisticated than what I have.

I've had good luck over the years with Hoppe's number 9 for routine cleaning, and occasional use of Sweets and JB bore paste to get stubborn fouling out. I've found that so long as the bore is "annointed" as Hoppe's calls it with their number 9 solvent that corrosion will not occur. There are many other decent rust preventatives which will protect the bore from deteriorating, even with copper in there.

My 1953 model 70 Winchester was cleaned only with Hoppes number 9 during the four and a half decades in which my uncle (who bought the rifle new) used it. The bore is still pristine from all appearances, and shoots boringly consistent 1/2 MOA groups.

Dan Newberry
green 788

One other benefit of Bob338's idea of shooting a single target at different range sessions and different temps. and different barrel temps is that over the course of 10-20 shots given the one shot at a time method you will REALLY get an idea of the accuracy capabilities of your rifle.You can then judge more conclusively if that one shot was really a flier that opened up the group or does it fall within the natural "grouping" of the rifle/barrel. All good tips gentlemen.

Hey guys (buddies, pals, etc.) I remember seeing an article about this in (I believe) Guns & Ammo (or one of the popular gun mags) about a year or so ago. It was an extensive test they conducted to see how accuracy changed as firing continued and I believe(?) they found little deterioration (whew, that's a big word!). Did anybody else see the same article and if so, could they reference or post it here?

Copper deposits in a "clean" barrel will not cause electrolytic corrosion. Placing two dissimilar metals in pure water will not lead to electrolytic corrosion. Placing two metals in an electrolyte with free ions will cause electrolytic corrosion. Boats with dissimilar metals in their fastenings used in fresh water do not suffer from electrolytic corrosion. Boats with dissimilar metals in their fastenings used in seawater with all its salts and free ions suffer tremendously from electrolytic corrosion. Adding distilled water to a fresh dry lead battery which has never had an electrolyte added to it will not allow the battery to take a charge. Adding an acidic solution with its free ions to a fresh dry lead battery will lead to electrolysis and allow the battery to take a charge. This is not to say that leaving copper in a clean bore is not a bad thing, but if the bore is "clean" it will not lead to electrolytic corrosion.

I also agree with Hot Core. If you want pitted barrels, don't ever clean out the copper. The bench rest shooters I know don't have these factory barrels that us mere peasants have. Thier Dan Lija barrels are smooth as a babies butt, and don't gather the copper enough to cause pitting like our 700's do. And you can bet, unless they are in the moly camp, that there barrels are copper stripped after every match. And they foul them with one or two shots before competing.

I have a 300RUM, that copper fouls so heavy, you have to remove the copper after 10 rounds or your groups will open up. Yes, the barrel is very rough. But I am having a new barrel put on to take care of that problem. Only way to get consistent groups is for me to clean thoughly, shoot one fouling shot, that is always 2MOA left of the scope setting. And then shoot my loads.

Hot Core:

Well, since you want to take it point by point. Let me respond.

1) Actually you are not correct, I was just being polite. Try it sometime.

2) I don't know you.

3) Your idea that leaving some small degree of copper wash in barrels will instantly or even, in most cases, over a very long period cause pitting is hogwash. Most "clean" barrels have some copper in them, and I'll bet that includes yours, try a borescope.

4) What works for you does not become gospel, nor does it make it a correct choice. A fouled bore, meaning it has been shot, is not a problem, it is the normal state of a bore that someone shoots or hunts with. It may seem to be a giant problem to you, but most hunters and target shooters do not view it as such. Does that make them right, no, but it certainly doesn't make you right either.

5)Again, it is not a problem, and I suspect that test would prove that a lightly fouled bore would be more accurate than a clean "lightly greased" one, whatever that means. Who puts grease in their guns that they are going to shoot, not counting you? No one that knows sic em from sooey. It increases pressures and is not a repeatable condition, therefore your 2nd or 4th shot will not be to the same point of aim. I know, you are such an incredible shot that you never use more than one shot, but some do. Again, working for you and your odd views does not make it the WAY.

6) I have yet to require more than 2 shots on a deer, and in that one case, the second one was probably unnecessary but I often shoot quite a few times in one day, at deer, hogs, varmints, targets or anything else I feel like shooting. I don't know how many deer I have killed, but at least a couple of dozen over the years, so my methods of gun sighting and shooting may not be yours, but they work for me and many others. It may thrill you to carry a cleaning kit around and use it after every shot, but I'll pass. Indeed, to horrify you even further, I may go weeks without cleaning my barrel. Amazingly, it is not pitted. To each his own, but don't try to convince me that you have THE answer. You may have an answer that works for you and that is fine, but for most people it is, how should I put this, somewhat obsessive.

One shot group, now that is a laugh.....

Firelapping (with either the Wheeler kit, or the Tubbs "Final Finish" kit) is a good way to smooth up a factory bore to some extent, and make it easier to clean. JB bore paste also seems to help. Your 300 RUM would probably smooth out some with these techniques, but a new custom barrel will be better still. That RUM--even with the custom barrel--is still going to collect more than its share of copper due to the intense pressure and velocity. You may decide to shoot moly bullets when you get your new barrel.

I'm sorry to dissent here, but unless you leave a copper fouled bore dry of any sort of lubricant, and unattended for an extended period of time, you'll have no problem with rust leading to pitting. Coat the bore with a decent rust inhibitor every few weeks, and that copper can sit in that bore until Bill Clinton tells the truth and all will be well.

I've found that the Hoppes number 9 gradually lifts copper free (over a period of days) and inhibits rust while doing so. Factory barrels (and customs too, but to a lesser extent) have tool marks and other imperfections of the bore surface that actually benefit from being filled with "seasoning" as David Tubbs refers to it. Controlling the amount of "seasoning" or "conditioning fouling" is a mere matter of cleaning, yes, but not cleaning too much. My groups from my most accurate rifles have all improved since I ceased removing all traces of copper after each shooting session. I normally just clean with Hoppes number 9, and every third or fourth time clean with a stouter copper remover such as Butch's. If things get really orange at the muzzle, I treat with Sweets and/or JB bore paste. All of my barrels are factory barrels, except for one. I would imagine what is good for a factory barrel may not necessarily be the best medicine for a custom.

Dan Newberry
green 788

Thanks for the advise green. But I would beg you not to tell people to use that tubbs kit. Due to this heavy copper fouling, I recently ruined this barrel with the tubbs kit. It may have been rough before, but damn if it wasn't accurate if you kept the copper out. I looked thru the barrel with a hawkeye bore scope before and after. Before it was rough with definable edges on the rifling. After, groups opened up from .8" to 1.5-2". Borescoped and found all the edges was smoothed over but it didn't help the roughness that much. Fortunately my smith made videos of this to show the Tubbs people and maybe make them show evidence of their success. He said I wasn't alone. For every one person you see saying it was a success, you will find 5 that shake their head violently with a "NO, don't do it". So after its said and done, a new krieger barrel and having it installed, and parkerized is going to run around 450 dollars. Say no to Tubbs.

I'm sorry to hear of your bad experience with firelapping your rifle. I use the Wheeler kit (you "roll your own" by smearing coarse, medium, then fine lapping compound on a small metal plate, then roll the bullet between that plate and another identical plate to impregnate the bullet with the grit). I've had really good luck with this method.

It is likely that load redevelopment would have been necessary after firelapping to realize the accuracy potential of the newly lapped barrel. The changes that firelapping induces in the bore are going to alter pressure and velocity from what you had before. Depending on the partucular load recipe you were using, a charge weight change or merely an OAL adjustment may have brought things around.

None of this is to say that your new custom barrel isn't a good investment--it of course is, and should certainly be better than the best factory fire lapped barrel.

I have an old (1937) Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifle that I had developed a good load for prior to firelapping. It too "went to hell" after I firelapped, and I thought I'd ruined it. In truth, the original load was developed to make the best of the bore in its then state. I redeveloped and the rifle shoots twice as tight as it did before, and is much easier to clean.

It is my belief that if firelapping is properly done, the bore will be smoother than it was when new. The Tubbs kit is all the rage with high-power and long distance shooters, and has been on the market long enough now to have failed by its own demerit if it harmed barrels 80% of the time.

Dan

We should start a survey to find the results people have had with these various firelapping kits. I also have a .300RUM that fouls heavily, and the Tubbs kit seemed like a possibility. Let's see who's used it and what their results were.

I wish all who have used it the best of luck. Maybe I used too slow of powder, H1000 to shoot the kit thru, or maybe something else. But since the experience, I have tryed 4 powders, and 5 bullets, and two primers with no luck.

I also don't think it is the rage for long range competition. I should have knew better than to use it when I went to a 1000 yard competition and everyone I asked about it, Tubbs kit, they all kinda snickered and said no comment. Then talked to the boys at Sierra, which I do trust their judgement, and they said don't do it. But stupid me, has to prove it to myself.

Standard procedure in ANY gun is to fire two "fouling shots" . . . this heats up the barrel and gets rid of all the oil, residue left from cleaning.

Then you get accuracy.

In .223 Rem. and Ackley, I run patches about every 10 or 15 rounds. Two or three groups. Not huge on getting the bore spotless, just getting the major crap out of the tube.

There is a trade off between what is best and what is acceptable.

It's generaly not a good idea to put a rifle away with powder fouling nor IMHO is it a good idea to break out the Barnes after your one shot every so often at a deer. I clean with Kroil after every stalk and with Hoppes BR every half box or so. This works for me.

Hey Gatogordo, Actually my post is directed to those folks who are going to be "fooled" by people who really don't know what they are talking about within this thread.

If you see my responses as "rude", I'm simply responding in kind.

I won't bother responding to the majority of your last post, because it is obvious you have your mind made up and I have no desire to change "your mind". Once you get some experience, you will realize how wrong your thoughts are on your own. You are certainly not alone though, there are a lot of folks in the world who are totally unable to benefit from the experience of others.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Hot Core: 3) Your idea that leaving some small degree of copper wash in barrels will instantly or even, in most cases, over a very long period cause pitting is hogwash. Most "clean" barrels have some copper in them, and I'll bet that includes yours, try a borescope.

4) What works for you does not become gospel...

5)Again, it is not a problem, and I suspect that test would prove that a lightly fouled bore would be more accurate than a clean "lightly greased" one, whatever that means. 5a) Who puts grease in their guns that they are going to shoot, not counting you? No one that knows sic em from sooey. 5b) It increases pressures and is not a repeatable condition, 5c) therefore your 2nd or 4th shot will not be to the same point of aim. 5d)I know, you are such an incredible shot ...

6) I have yet to require more than 2 shots on a deer, 6a) so my methods of gun sighting and shooting may not be yours, but they work for me .... 6b) It may thrill you to carry a cleaning kit around and use it after every shot, but I'll pass. 6c) Indeed, to horrify you even further, I may go weeks without cleaning my barrel. Amazingly, it is not pitted. 6d) To each his own, but don't try to convince me ...

7) One shot group, now that is a laugh.....

---

3) Here Gatogordo is wrong. But, that response is for "other folks" reading this thread. I certainly would not want to upset him with an experienced response that disagrees with his misconceptions.

4) I agree.

5) Gatogordo is saying he doesn't know what "lightly greased means", but disagrees with it. I find it thought provoking that a person can "disagree" with something they do not understand.

5a) Similar to running a car with no oil in it I suppose. If that is what you want to do, have at it.

5b) If done incorrectly, Gatogordo is correct. Too much grease in a bore will act as an obstruction. BUT, I mentioned "lightly greased". (See answer #5)

5c) Wrong again.

5d) Truer words were never spoken!

6) Congratulations to Gatogordo! Always good to hear of clean kills.

6a) Or so he thinks.

6b) Undisciplined cleaning habits will eventually result in damage. It is a lot of "work" to maintain a barrel properly.

6c) I agree it is "amazing".

6d) I agree that it is an apparent waste of time.

7) Not understanding the 1-shot group concept speaks volumes for Gatogordo's inexperience.

Hey GunGeek, I simply disagree with you. Best of luck to you.

Hey Bigcountry, I agree the various "Fire-Lapping Kits" are creating some unwelcome problems. In your situation, you may not really have lost anything other than the cost of the Kit and the opportunity to get the factory to replace the barrel at their cost.

But, I think I remember you had pretty much decided on going with an aftermarket barrel anyhow.

Biggest problem I see with those Kits is they will by design create a "Tapered Lap" and lengthen the distance to the Lead. Very little Lapping gets done out toward the muzzle(in comparison). Hand Lapping seems to work a bit better, but it can also goof things up if done wrong.

So, like you, I would not recommend a Lapping Kit unless I first warned the potential users of the negative points associated with it.

Well folks, it looks like Hotcore's back from being grounded off the computer!

It was starting to get boring around here!

Welcome back, HC!

Dan

Uhhh,

Hello again. Did anybody see the article I mentioned? Or can someone look for it?

[ 07-23-2002, 23:01: Message edited by: sonofagun ]

What this discussion needs is some input from someone who knows. Instead it will get my input!
First off. My very best barrels seemed like they would shoot to the same point of impact whether clean or dirty. I think it is important to add that my barrels were probably never totally copper free after the first shot. I have never used aggressive chemical cleaners in any of my barrels.
It is my belief that true fouling is that that has some real dimension. The copper color seen in all barrels after a couple of shots has no real dimension and is only a "wash" of copper. This does no harm and may infact provide some protection to the bore.
Best accuracy occurs when the conditions for each shot are exactly the same as for the previous shot. This seldom happens but it is obvious that it is more likely to happen after the barrel is minimally fouled. If a barrel tends to REALLY foul then it is another matter. In this case the copper buildup is just that. A buildup. Instead of streaks of color you have lumps of copper or gilding metal depending on the bullet. This barrel probably won't shoot consistently fouled or clean.
When I was in my heyday as a BR shooter I, of course, cleaned lots. Just like everyone else. Then I noticed that if I just ran a damp patch through the bore followed by a dry one I could inspect the bore and check for fouling. If it looked good I just kept shooting. The rifle shot just as well and I won just as often.
At one match in Puget sound I noticed that L.E.Wilson seldom cleaned his barrel and when he did it was simply a damp patch followed by a dry one. When I asked him about his cleaning or lack thereof he told me he preferred to wear his barrels out by putting bullets through them!
Now I am shooting in competitions that may require the shooting of many more shots than BR and I clean even less. I usually just clean at the end of the day though I may run a solvent dampened patch through during the course of the day. (I still use Hoppes#9). At the end of a day where I have fired 70 shots or more I wipe the bore with the damp patch and dry it then inspect the bore for any fouling. If there is any the rifle probably wasn't shooting all that well anyway but there usually is none.
I don't think the theory of the fouled bore creating a better seal holds water but everyone has to believe in something and I guess that belief is mostly harmless.
Some powders (notably some Ball types)may have a tendency to burn on in the throat of the barrel. The resulting fouling is very hard and most definitely will affect accuracy. When using these powders it is probably a good idea to run a damp patch through with a little more frequency and even plan on brushing if necessary.
So. I don't think the copper wash hurts a thing and is there from the first shot. Complete removal only means that it must be replaced. Lumps of copper,on the other hand, must be removed and are definitely harmful to accuracy. In fact any real buildup of anything has to be removed. Once a barrel is fouling normally though there should be little problem and cleaning doesn't have to be so aggressively done. This barrel will not really be fouled at all but only "conditioned" and will shoot well. Regards, Bill

BillLeeper:

Thanks for some "experienced" insight on this thread.

Hot Core:

I was being polite again, "obsessive" was your condition before it turned for the worse. Keep cleaning, it occupies your mind.

As a new shooter, I don't have a lot of experience or money to invest in a really good cleaning kit, but I do have a Bore Snake and Hoppes #9, which I run through my .30-06 after every 6-9 shots. That one is a winchester M70 Classic stainless, and without cleaning much, it has shot under .4".
HOWEVER, my dad's 788 in .308 gets cleaned even less than that, and when I clean it "well," it takes 7 shots before it will start grouping under an inch again It is a sub MOA rifle, but it sure opens up when I clean it. I agree with Green 788.
I suspect that there has been a lot of game killed, who didn't know that the bullet that hit them (in the right spot) came from an uncleaned bore.