I just got my Sinclair concentricicty guage. I was looking at my brass runout and I had 3mil between min and max. I guess thats not that big of a deal. But looked at some loaded 300RUM and my bullet runout with 200gr accubonds was 7mil towards the plasitc tip. That sounded like alot. So I got me a decent comp. redding bullet seater. Maybe that might help. I talked to some techs at Sierra, they say I need to square my seater and sizer before using by raising the piston on my press and then screwing the dies in putting pressure on the dies and then tighten down the ring. I have never done that. Next I plan to do what alot of you guys do and turn 1/3 turn at a time while seating.

Do you guys ever achiever 0 bullet runout?

bigcountry, I can almost achieve "0" runout, i.e., .001" -.0015" with some of my dies, but you're not going to like my answer. Firstly, my 8mm Mau. Lee Loader will do .001_ -.002", but my Lee neck sizers all will do .001". Then there's a 20+ yr. old set of Lyman 8mm Mau. dies that will give me .0015" runout, IF I keep the expander ball stem loose in the FL die. ...Maven

Most ammo is .005 to .010".

I can keep it under .002" with the indicator on the ogive and the bearing on forward near the shoulder and one rear near the extractor groove.

The best ammo I have measured of 36 different calibers is Greek 303. It is all less than .001".

Why do you care? Seriously, if it does not show up in your groups it's not worth worrying about. A couple of years ago a friend and I were testing loads for our service rifles at 600 yards. He had sorted his ammo by runout and had the "rejects" left over so he fired a couple more groups, guess what? The smallest 2 groups fired that day. At that point I finally persuaded him that he should be practicing more from position and worrying less about statistics, he has improved and won 1st expert in last years league.

If you're familiar with the shell holders for the Wilson case trimmer, I once resized (not using the expander button in the sizing die) a small batch of .308 cases.

I then put these cases in the Wilson shell holders and indicated them individually in a 4-jaw chuck of my lathe and bored the case neck ID and turned the OD all to the same dimension as close as I could.

I then re entered them to resizing die and this time used the expander button.....

Thinking I had just created perfect cases, I went to my range and discovered that those rounds shot just like all the others.

Since then I have found a way to pick out errant reloads or even factory ammo...clean the ammo well and roll them across a flat surface and watch them carefully. Believe it or not this is as good as I've come in concentricity testing. I've actually given it up because I don't shoot for groups much anymore.....I just like to shoot prairie dogs and the extra word didn't pay off for me.

If you're a competition shooter that is different...be picky...I'm not!!

Kevin, come on man, what kinda reloader are you? Most reloaders are perfectionist and have alot of fun trying to perfect thier rounds. How do you know they are not showing up in your groups? Maybe you have a unlieying problem that dominates you group size and runout on your rounds is not the worse factor. What i am trying to do is get rid of flyers that make a nice 500 yard group into twice its size. It happens every 5 shot group to me. Always a flyer. I love this hobby, and take it very seriously. I would love to get into benchrest shooting. But I have a ways to go after watching some of those guys.



I do want to be a competition shooter actually. Your right, after using my guauge, I can tell when a load is off by my naked eye by rolling. I can tell if it is more than .004. I was a little surprised.



Thing I have done. Measured my fired brass. My actions seem to be square from this. Measured brass without expander already sized. Very sqare. Deprimed with univeral and raised my expander up into my sizing die. Works ok. I still get 2 mil runout from this. Next thing I plan to do is to square up my dies as the guy from Sierra explained and use the competition seater I got. I believe this will make alot of difference.

Bigcountry,
I guess were just different, benchrest has no appeal to me until I get too old to hunt and shoot competition from position. You will find in Highpower rifle competition that the best shooters find a load that works and stick with it, the best reloaders are always fiddling with something and never have good zeroes or are blaming the load when they should be learning to read the wind and call their shots. I'm more of a shooter than a reloader even though I load around 5000 rounds a year. Best example I can point to are the military rifle teams, these guys don't reload, they get handed a rifle and ammunition(yes its good stuff from the armorers shop) and go shoot. I think the teams turn novices into experts by taking the issue of what load? what barrel? How much does that cost? off the minds of the teams and focusing on form, position, and wind reading. I have never calculated a standard deviation, but I do have a Distinguished Rifleman Badge, a Presidents 100 certificate and Brassard, and a little dog-eared card in my wallet card that says "Master High Power Rifle" on it. Reloading can be fun too and passes the winter nicely. You may want to try a Redding Full-length bushing die with the expander ball removed, made a big difference in my groups and brass life with a 300 WSM. And make sure you get out and try High Power, great people and lots of fun.

Your right, Kevin, the military rifle teams get handed a rifle and ammo and go shoot. But the armorers tweak those rifles and tailor-make the ammo for each one so the soldiers don't have to.



These aromorers do all the tedious crap--weigh each case, neck turn, weigh bullets, check runout, etc. They then load and test the ammo until they get a good combo, then they turn it over to the teams. They've got a reloading setup that we'd all drool over and they are paid to set everything up so the shooters don't have to worry about it.



It's all about putting the odds in favor of your team. The odds of snatching a box of off-the-shelf ammo and getting consistent, world-class performance from it are slim. The military is well aware of this, too, so they improve the odds using the same techniques we all use.

The military teams do not develop a load for EACH gun. They work up a good standard load, load a ton of it and issue it to the team each day. I happen to know an officer from AMU who is also on the Palma team.

Giggle, giggle, another runnout thread, half say 'why bother', the rest fiddle with it, each side devout in their beliefs, so sincerely the Pope is jealous! Count me in!

Kevin, your suggestion to use the bushing dies w/o the expander is interesting in light of this discussion. Why in the world would one use a bushing die WITH an expander? Their purpose is to precisely neck size with a bushing appropriate to a specific firearm so as to provide consistant neck tension and minimize neck run out. If you think slightly crooked bullets shoot as well as straight one's you are misguided. Some rifles are more tolerent of run out to a point, and some are lacking in sufficient accuracy to benefit from the process. I own some of each. However, nearly all will demonstrate at least some improvement when firing ammo with minimal run out.

It is a matter of application IMO. A Mod. 94 in 30-30 has a range limit that makes the energy spent on correcting run out a waste of time. Same cartridge in a TC Contender Carbine shooting spitzer bullets, that may not be the case.

I suggest that people evaluate this on their own and make their own conclusions, BASED ON THEIR NEEDS. Loading ammo with minimal or zero run out is the process wherein one learns the fine art and understanding of what their dies and techniques are really doing, and how to correct deficiencies. Never in a thousand years will cockeyed bullets shoot better than straight ones. It is physically impossible. Do I care much with my .358 Win? No. On the other hand, I have a Ruger #1 in .257 Roberts and that particular rifle is extremely affected by RO. Realizing that was the end of several years of frustration. It will shoot 2-3" groups with factory ammo or handloads not screened for RO, and yet with low RO it has put over 20 shots in 3/4" at 100 yds from a rest.

There are many things that can affect accuracy, RO in one of them. Now I shall step down from the soapbox...

Technically speaking, you are correct--they don't load for each rifle. However, that does not mean they don't care about these loading details. They come up with a a few different loads, all meticulously constructed, and try them in various rifles. If they try each of the loads they have without success, they dump the rifle.

I'd do the same thing, too, if I had an infinite rifle pool. But because I don't, I have to try to get the most out of the one I have.

Fact is they still are meticulous about the ammo they load, even if it's for a number of rifles. They are not buying it off the shelf, or cranking it out with a progressive and letting it drop into a 55 gallon drum of loaded cartridges.

And they do check the runout of the first few to ensure everything is aligned (die, ram, cartridge, chamber, etc.). Once the equipment provides ammo within spec then the checking need not continue.

I reload for 11 different calibers, 3 of which are mil. surp. rifles for which I take no special pains. I just
finished cutting over the other 8 calibers to Wilson NS Knock out dies. They are the best I've seen for
minimizing run out. I don't need a press for the sizer or seater, just a little rawhide mallet. I still ream
the flash hole and primer pocket, bevel the inside & outside of the necks, trim for length and that's
about it. Once in a blue moon I'll roll the loaded rounds to check for runout, not often. There just
isn't much need anymore. Most tasks I can do with a drill or power screwdriver. I guess I'm getting
lazy in my old age. I also think it's worthwhile to have a good smith true up your action. Most factory
rifles we get now make lousy contact at key points. Any time one can save in the reloading process, and
still maintain accuracy, is worth its weight in gold. It can become an obsession if you let it. Best wishes,
and small groups to all.

Cal - Montreal

I had a similar experience a couple years ago. After reloading for quite a while, I got an RCBS Case Master to get the last little bit of accuracy out of my .22 Hornet loads. I checked EVERY round I loaded, and drove myself absolutely CRAZY trying to get .002" or less on every round. Most of my loads were .004" or less, but I had fits over some .308 loads. I free-floaded the expander balls, rotated cases during sizing and seating, turned necks you name it and I tried it.
As one other poster mentioned, I usually shot tighter groups with my "culled" rounds than my "perfect" reloads. My most concentric loads were never my best groups, usually because I tried so hard and was convinced any "flyer" had to be my fault, not the wind or ammunition.
Don't worry, you'll get over this phase in a little while, and your concentricity gauge will probably migrate to some seldom used corner of your reloading bench, just as mine has!
Regards, George.