The title pretty much says it all, I was just wondering what rimmed cartridge would be suitable for a single shot walking rifle where 25-20 is too little and 25-35 is possibly a shade too overkill? I'm thinking squirrels at 25 yards and coyotes at under 100 yards.

A metric case is fine, but I'd like it to be bigger than 6mm. I was just thinking what sort of options would be suitable for a small 3 poundish rifle with a 2 power or so scope.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
......I'm thinking squirrels at 25 yards and coyotes at under 100 yards.........

Sounds like the 25-20 to me.......

Larry Gibson

256 Win Mag. roger

A 60 grain bullet in a .25-20 WCF will do the task quite well.....it'll hit 2,200 FPS.....

Well, a lo-o-o-ng time ago there were the 25-25 and the 25-28, but they have been pretty dead for about 80-90 years now, maybe even 100 years. "Progress" often means "new", not what the dictionary says it means.

As Bartsche says, the .256 Winchester would be the only current factory cartridge in between those two in capacity. It is based on the .357 Magnum case given a shoulder and necked to .257, whereas the .25-20 is based on the slightly smaller diameter .32-20 -- .218 Bee case.

John Wooters (RIP) popularized the .25 Copperhead, which is simply a .222 case expanded to take a .257" bullet. It would be a tad smaller than a .25/35, but it is not rimmed. .222 Remington Rimmed brass is available from a couple of sources, so a rimmed .22 Copperhead could be fashioned easily enough.

Another rimmed possiblity would be a sort of ".256 Win Maximum" which could be fashioned from .357 Maximum brass with the same neck and shoulder as the .256 Win.

Shall I go on?

A 256Winchester is about 2 grs or 10% larger than the 25-20. The 25-35 is over 200% larger.

Can't believe a 25-20 wouldn't get the job done.

There was a 25-21 Stevens and a 25-25 Stevens as well.

Wasn't there a once popular varmint ctg.,.22-3000?, based upon a .25-20 Stevens, or something like that. A .25-20 WIn. on steroids.
I may actually have one of those cases someplace. Would guess your chances of finding any today would be slim. I believe someone makes a .222 Rem. rimmed, might be a good starting point?
C.G.B.

I've probably written about this elsewhere, but when I was a kid my Dad had a 1892 in 25-20 and I'd take that hunting on occasion. Not too much over my Stevens Favorite in 22lr because the shells back then were ungodly expensive compared to a 22 but it was fun to carry in the woods as it (in my 12 year old eyes at least) was a genuine big game rifle and all. I never shot a deer with it, only some raccoons, rabbits, and groundhogs. Maybe it was poor bullet placement, but I had a few issues with it not killing groundhogs as cleanly as I'd like to do nowadays. Maybe it is a biased and inaccurate opinion, but I'd prefer something slightly more authoritative.

quote:

Maybe it was poor bullet placement, but I had a few issues with it not killing groundhogs as cleanly

Slow moving old hard cast bullets?

There is a 25-225Win but that is almost as large as the 25-35. The 256Win would give almost 6-700fps over the 25-20 however it is rated at a much higher pressure.

Someone has made a 357Maximum version which gives you around 28grs of capacity so you go get 256 win velocity at lower pressure.

Here is the write up from AmmoGuide.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inspired by the .25-222 Copperhead, the goal was to produce a rimmed variation suitable for Martini Cadet actions with higher performance than the commercially-available .256 Winchester Magnum. .357 Maximum brass is used to form cases for the .256 Hull & Standen Maximum.

The round is designed for inexpensive plinking (using cast lead, gas-checked bullets) and smaller Australian game (with conventional jacketed bullets), capable of reaching out to 200 yards with 100 grain pills @ approximately 2250 fps.

The chamber of the development firearm was cut short with a .222 Remington reamer. Chamber neck was then opened up with a .25 cal. reamer. A .204 Ruger reamer was then partially inserted for final chamber shaping sufficient to accept hand-formed brass. Fire-forming is the last step to produce fully-formed wildcat brass. Remington .357 Maximum unprimed cases are fire-formed with a light charge of AR2207 powder behind a Cramer 94 gr. cast, lead, gas-checked bullet. The rim diameter of this lot is 0.433" and the web area measures 0.375".

Load data is under development and will be forthcoming. I suspect the round's maximum powder charges will fall just below the .25-222 Copperhead.

The .256 Hull & Standen Maximum is a fun little case and nice to shoot. The 75 grain Sierra HP has worked out well in testing and promises to be an effective combination on rabbits, foxes and other like type feral critters.

Heck if you don't already have a barrel something like the 6x70R Norma

quote:

Originally posted by cgbach:
Wasn't there a once popular varmint ctg.,.22-3000?, based upon a .25-20 Stevens, or something like that? A .25-20 WIn. on steroids.

The 22-3000 was not based on the 25.20 WCF case, just like CGB said. It was based on the .25-20 Single Shot case which was an entirely diferent kettle of fish, quite possibly original to Stevens in commercial rifles. Neither case would completely enter the other chamber. The Winchester case was bigger at the head than the Single Shot case, and the Single Shot case was appreciably longer than the WCF case.


I believe someone makes a .222 Rem. rimmed, might be a good starting point?
C.G.B.

For that matter, one could pick any easily available longer case, use that case head diameter, and have a reamer made for a case with that head diameter and a body of whatever length they wished to have. That way they could design it to hold the number of grains of powder they want to have available to them.


Most likely, though, the easiest way is to chamber for the .25-35, and develop loads down at the power level you want. Many of us reload in the first place precisely because we can then load for the power we want or need.

Have fun, whichever approach you use.

quote:

Well, a lo-o-o-ng time ago there were the 25-25 and the 25-28, but they have been pretty dead for about 80-90 years now, maybe even 100 years. "Progress" often means "new", not what the dictionary says it means.

In this case progress does mean better. I had a .25-21 (short version of the .25-25) and it was a real pain. A long straight case it was easily buckled and it was not very efficient with most powders that work in the .25-20. The .25-25 would have only been worse. The .25-20 Repeater replaced them and is far far better for any use IME.


.

I like the 256 Win Mag, have made several Martini Cadets and one low wall Winchester in this chambering. It's a far better killer than the 25-20 WCF or 25-20 Single Shot and will reach out to 175-200 yds with the 75-gr bullet. The brass is stronger than the 25-20 WCF and will stand more pressure with fewer problems.

Factory loads are no longer offered by the major manufacturers but I've formed cases from 357 Magnum in 2 passes after annealing. I use a 30 Luger sizing die for the initial pass and finish with the 256 sizer. Anneal beforehand and no case loss.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by TX Nimrod:

quote:

Well, a lo-o-o-ng time ago there were the 25-25 and the 25-28, but they have been pretty dead for about 80-90 years now, maybe even 100 years. "Progress" often means "new", not what the dictionary says it means.

In this case progress does mean better. I had a .25-21 (short version of the .25-25) and it was a real pain. A long straight case it was easily buckled and it was not very efficient with most powders that work in the .25-20. The .25-25 would have only been worse. The .25-20 Repeater replaced them and is far far better for any use IME.


.

Of course there are a great many more powders available now. One is not limited to powders which were intended for the .25-20 WCF.

But personally, I would simply download the .35-35.

Everyone else is free to do whatever they wish and can afford. Any number of various strong brass cases such as the .357 Max or the .222R can be used as the basis for a wildcat, IF one wishes to spend that kind of money. Or one can use the .256 if they want to spend the money for the dies to make that brass.

All are observations as to what is possible, not as to what he SHOULD do.

look at the 32-20

Mark:

Here's what I have done, which was very easy and lots of fun. I moved the shoulder forward .200 on the 25-20 case, and wound up with something like a 25 Bee. My buddies now call it the 25-20 Eden Improved, LOL. I have the ground down reamer, if you have an interest in doing something like this. Increase capacity about 2 grains, forms very easily from 25-20 factory, or reloaded ammo. Kinda what Ol' P.O. Ackley had in mind.

Jerry

There is a better alternative if you would be willing to do a wildcat.
Use 6mm bullets instead. There are many excellent 6mm bullets in a variety of weights.
The most common rimmed case in the size range you are looking at is the .357 magnum.

If you're talking about case capacity, anything in the 30 gr H20 will fit...that means most of the 222,223 size and a bunch of necked down and shortened 30-30, 30-40, BR etc case...take your pick of calibers, there is one from 14 to 30.

Lots of calibers on the Hornet case that fills that bill in spades also.

I can't see why the 25-20 with modern bullets and powders wouldn't do the job either...I mean I take out lots of sage ratz and ground squirrels with my 177 RWS pellet gun and several feral dogs/cats out to about 35 yds anyway.

I load my 256 Win, 10" Contender with 75gr VM's to ~2200fs or slightly over and I guarantee it will take coyotes at 100 yds and a bit farther without any problem...does kinda mess up sage ratz up closer tho'...and the 60 gr bullets do even more damage.

LUCK

How about a 6.5 TCU on a conmtender carbine??

Half way between a 25-20 and a 25-35 would be a 25-27 1/2

Barstooler

quote:

Originally posted by YUMAN:
How about a 6.5 TCU on a conmtender carbine??

I'm somewhat "wildcatted out" at this point. Not to say things won't change later on in life, but not for now.

However, if I were to go with a non-rimmed cartridge and not in 25 caliber a 6mm PPC is close to what you are suggesting.

I was thinking about a rimmed cartridge because I had a martini action as a possible action, but I don't know if the 6mm PPC would work easily in this application, but it bears thinking about.

Sounds like you really want a modest load in a 25-35. Why not? roger

My friend George the Knifemaker has more than a dozen Cadets in chamberings from 22LR to 44 Magnum, with several Herrett cartridges in the mix, and his favorite is one in 25-35 Ackley Improved. He loads to 40-45K psi and has no trouble at all. The blown-out case is amazingly easy to extract compared to the original 25-35, a phenomenon noted by Frank de Haas in his critique of the various Zippers and one of Ackley's prime selling points.

For a simple & economical approach to the problem, I've used a 223 Rem reamer to make a 222 Rimmed using the necked-down 357 Maximum case. If the 223 reamer is run in to the headspace of the 222 Rem then the necked-down 357 Max brass is exactly the proper length. After cutting the rim recess on the lathe I ended up with a short-necked 222 Rimmed that's just about perfect for the little Cadet. The shoulder angles and dimensions of the 2 cases are identical, the only differences are the lengths and body tapers. I use 223, repeat 223 dies with the sizer shortened to the 222 headspace (to maintain the proper body taper) and a 357 Mag shellholder.

I also like the 256 Win Mag but would feel better about shooting a coyote with something a little more powerful. Sure the 256 will handily kill an animal as large as a coyote (eventually, in some cases...) but I like to do all my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger (grin).
Regards, Joe

quote:

But personally, I would simply download the .25-35.

Sound advise from someone with a lot of experience...that is why we handload, so that one can tailor their loads to the situation at hand.

check out load data in a cast bullet manual..and substitute a jacketed bullet..

or if you don't want or have a lever action 25/35 then look at cast loads in a 250 Savage...

or finally, you can wildcat a 222 ro 223 case with a 25 caliber bullet..and set a varmint bullet on it..low velocity, short range, a good plastic tip or blitz style varmint bullet would open up plenty good for a short range deer cartridge ( say 100 yds or less)

plenty of options if you just use the old noggin..

quote:

Posted 16 April 2011 22:47 Hide Post
Half way between a 25-20 and a 25-35 would be a 25-27 1/2 killpc

Barstooler

beat me to it

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:

quote:

Posted 16 April 2011 22:47 Hide Post
Half way between a 25-20 and a 25-35 would be a 25-27 1/2 killpc

Barstooler

beat me to it

Would a 25-284 be close enough?