Just curious as to how many of you Neck size only on your hunting rifles. Or I guess the real question is do you really see an accuracy increase over a partial resize?

If you do see a measureable difference only Neck Sizing I would be curious as to how much.

Question:
Which do you find more accurate in your "non-target" rifles.

Choices:
Neck Sizing Only
Partial FL Resize
Full FL resize (bump the shell holder)
Can't really see any measurable difference

 

For a hunter, reliability is FAR more important than sub MOA accuracy, so I FL resize for any serious game hunting. There are no MOA rifles out in the field. Someone else said that, I just copied it.

Partial for me.....if I wanted a shoulder set at SAAMI I would shoot factory rounds

Almost all of my loading is done for a particular rifle so I only FL when necessary and only have a couple of cartridges that I have neck die for so pretty much everything I do is PFL unless there is a good reason to do otherwise. Seems to give best brass life and reliability.

Well, it depends.

For my M1a and Garand it's always full length sized to fit the Wilson guages. For the Krag it's neck size only otherwise case life is very short. For the .257AI it's neck size. For the .338 it's partial size for reliable feeding and to increase the otherwise very short case life. For the 7x57 the chamber is so tight neck or full length is about equal. For the .30-06 Springfield it's neck for targets and almost full length for game. For the 7.5x54 K31 it's full length.

So, for me at least, you need a fifth catagory of "It depends."

It comes down to: 1) what the rifle requires for reliable function is the primary consideration 2) accuracy is second and 3) case life is just slightly less important than accuracy for some and less important for others (Krag cases are getting hard to come by, 7x57 aren't too common, and reloadable cases for the Swiss are even worse.)

quote:

So, for me at least, you need a fifth catagory of "It depends."

Probably a number of others I forgot as well. I can easily understand on the autos. I was thinking of bolt actions when I listed the options.

I have several rifles that were full wildcats so the die was made from my fire formed brass. While I call those PFL they are basically FL.

I would go back and edit to add depends but then it wipes out all answers.

This forum had a number of old Coots who were angry advocates of partial neck sizing. I am glad I have not read HotCore for awhile. I am an advocate of full length sizing, and I set up my dies with Wilson type case gages so I don’t oversize, or undersize, the case. I am a regular Highpower Rifle competitor and the top competitors full length resize. If there was the slightest accuracy advantage of neck or partial resizing they would be doing it. Instead, if you ever become a competitor, you will find that function is extremely important and cases that are not full length resized have a tendency to stick in the chamber and ruin your score. I punch holes in paper, but I expect that many hunters have found their hunts ruined when they could not get a fired, or an unfired case, out of the chamber.

My case life is excellent, and I size everything I can with a small base die, assuming that it comes in the caliber I am using.

I have found little difference with most hunting rifles.

Every time I tried partial neck sizing I was ending up with a tight closing of the bolt - meaning the shoulder had moved forward a bit.

So I started using the Hornady comparator to get the right sizing & head space. But full length sizing does not seem to affect hunting accuracy out to 200 meters or more.

In my 280 Ack Imp I use the Redding busing die for pure neck sizing.

I find that accuracy is affected a lot more by the choice of bullet, seating depth and powder selection & charge. I am of course assuming that the case used is the same & from one lot.

The only time I found the case making a BIG difference in accuracy was with my 222 rem - PMC cases give me 0.5" groups with some loads. I tried 3 or 4 other brands & did not get 1" even.

quote:

I am an advocate of full length sizing, and I set up my dies with Wilson type case gages so I don’t oversize

Not sure I understand what gauges you are talking about.

I checked PFL...... I like to work the brass less and it gives better accuracy. Dangerous game loads and double rifles all get full length.


.

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Not sure I understand what gauges you are talking about.

Wilson makes a simple case gage. It is cut large between shoulder and base so you can gage, using a fired case, what the headspace of your rifle, but primarily I use it to ensure that sized cases are within SAAMI spec’s for length.



This is how they work: You drop a sized case in the case and if the base is no lower than the Go and no higher than the NO GO, then your case is properly sized.




This is why you use them: The distance between Go and No Go is 0.006” and setting the correct shoulder set back distance is hard to do without gages.

I used to do size the case a bit, drop it in the rifle and check to see if there was resistance to bolt closure, size a bit more, check again, until the bolt dropped. I tried this in my 270 Win M1917 Sporter. With headspace gages, the rifle gaged correctly and I set up my dies using this technique. Later, after I bought a 270 Win Wilson gage, I checked some of the sized rounds, and they were all off. I came to the conclusion that bolt cocking cams and the lever arm afforded by the bolt handle disguised over length case conditions. A M1917 is easy to use, no spring loaded ejector, firing pin assembly can be taken off with a nickel, and yet, my sizing dimensions were all wrong. Because there were no cage gages in the 7.5 Swiss, I had to set up the dies this way, and that action has too many concentric parts and weird camming angles. Once I bought a Sinclair comparator and was able to check the fired length of the cases, I could tell I was way off in my die settings. Based on my experience, case gages are the most reliable and fool proof method of setting up your sizing dies, assuming your rifle chamber is within spec.

Thanks for the reply. How this helps I can't follow. But everyone has tricks they feel helps. If my chamber is off I don't follow how this gauge will help.

Since I have "in most cases" one gun per caliber. I take the bolt apart set my die up to so I can just close with no resistance. The die is set. Put the bolt back together and off I go.

Again thanks for the pictures and info.

The Wilson and similar case guages are handy to load ammunition that must fit in more than one rifle and insure that the cases meet specs.

For my bolt guns I don't use a guage as I load just for the rifle the case was fired in.

For my autoloaders (M1 and M1a) I use an appropriate Wilson guage to make certain the cases meet specs to insure that they will function properly.

Jerry Liles

I only have three rounds that I neck size only, which is how I voted. They are my 6.5x284 and 6.5-06AI and 264WM. They are all Redding dies. I have found that for the 6.5x284, it really does a PFL as well. It does bring the body back into shape some, but I have not found it to bump the shoulder. The 264WM I do to have the round headspace on the shoulder and not the stupid belt. I found that the shoulder moves quite a bit from the virgin brass to once fired, so I just keep it that way. The rest, I just pretty much full length resize.

I have Partial FL resized all of my hunting loads for about 40 years. My FL dies are adjusted to properly FL size cases that have not been fired in my rifles.

When I resize any case that has been previously fired in my rifles, I simply place a 0.030" washer (cut from the plastic top of a margarine container) under the size die. This partially resizes the cases.

I have never had any problems with cartridges not chambering properly, and have used this method on all cases from .22-250 to .375 RUM. That included over 20 years of partial FL resizing the cases for my .30 Gibbs with the dies that I got from RCBS after sending them 3 fired cases from my rifle.

This past year I bought a neck size die for my .300 Weatherby, and using it I am up to 6 firings with neck sized cases that still chamber smoothly and easily.

PFL resizing and neck sizing are all I use.

If I feel any resistance on chambering the resized case, I adjust it till it is gone, and no farther. That works best in most of my bolt action rifles.

If I am reloading for a rifle that is not bolt action, or the bolt always has cocking pressure on the firing pin, I use the permanent marker on the shoulder, adjust resizer till the marker is marred, and then give it about a 1/16 turn farther.

After that, I neck size till fired cases start chambering with resistance again.

If your a hunter I suggest full length resizeing all your hunting ammo, especially for Dangerous game..

Otherwise neck sizeing is supposed to make brass last longer, but that's questionable in that it depends on your chamber..The only thing I know that makes brass last longer is annealing every third firing and or a 0 tolerance chamber..

I can wear a case out in a good rifle in about 15 reloadings and neck sizeing won't add to that number..If I anneal the case will last much longer than that..but after 14 or 15 it easier to dump them and buy another couple of hundred...However with todays shortages not letting up it may come a time with we all may be annealing our brass.

quote:

Thanks for the reply. How this helps I can't follow. But everyone has tricks they feel helps. If my chamber is off I don't follow how this gauge will help.

If your chamber is off you may have a real problem, one that full length sizing, partial neck sizing, neck sizing won't cure. There are wacky gunsmiths who don't use chamber headspace gages, and don't have the slightest idea of safe case head protrusion. If your chamber was cut by one of these crazies, then you ought to make sure your will is up to date, you have expressed your wishes when to terminate life support, and for the disposal of your body.

If however, your rifle came from a reputable American manufacturer, and the bolt numbers match to the receiver, and it has not been rebarreled by a crazy, it is reasonable to assume that the chamber is "on". You can verify that by buying chamber headspace gages and checking the headspace, and doing so gives me peace of mind.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:

quote:

Thanks for the reply. How this helps I can't follow. But everyone has tricks they feel helps. If my chamber is off I don't follow how this gauge will help.

If your chamber is off you may have a real problem, one that full length sizing, partial neck sizing, neck sizing won't cure. There are wacky gunsmiths who don't use chamber headspace gages, and don't have the slightest idea of safe case head protrusion. If your chamber was cut by one of these crazies, then you ought to make sure your will is up to date, you have expressed your wishes when to terminate life support, and for the disposal of your body.

If however, your rifle came from a reputable American manufacturer, and the bolt numbers match to the receiver, and it has not been rebarreled by a crazy, it is reasonable to assume that the chamber is "on". You can verify that by buying chamber headspace gages and checking the headspace, and doing so gives me peace of mind.

This I do not understand.
How does a set of headspace guages tell you WHAT your fired cases measure?
I have always sized my brass by what it ACTUALLY measures after being fired, only reducing head clearance to .002"-.003" maximum limit set by me and what my rifle likes.
So, I guess I'm a partial FL sizer.

Cheers.

quote:

How does a set of headspace guages tell you WHAT your fired cases measure?

I have no idea about what you are doing, but chamber headspace gages are used to determine headspace in a rifle. A previous poster was making the claim that his chamber may be off. If he is really concerned about this, he ought to get a set of chamber headspace gages and measure the chamber.

The proper way to determine if the chamber is within "Go" and "No Go" is to remove the bolt, clean the chamber. Strip of the bolt of its extractor, ejector, firing pin assembly, anything else that might reduce feel, and insert a chamber headspace gage into the chamber. The bolt should close on the "Go" chamber headspace gage, and there should be light resistance on the "No Go" and the bolt should not be completely closed. It is important not to use the lever arm of the bolt handle and the cocking cam advantage to compress the gages, which would give a false reading.

Confusion always results between chamber headspace gages and cartridge case headspace gages. If you are confused about them, go to google images and see what chamber headspace gages look like. I have provided images of cartridge case headspace gages.

Most front locking bolt actions are rigid enough that a fired case will not be longer than the chamber. Flexible rear locking actions, such as the Lee Enfield, if the bolt is under compression at unlock, due to over pressure loads, the case may be a bit longer than chamber headspace. Cases extracted from gas guns will be longer than the chamber because the mechanism unlocks before the barrel pressure is zero. Due to the residual pressure at unlock, the shoulder moves forward during extraction. That is why attempting to figure out chamber headspace with a fired case from a gas gun using a Wilson type headspace gage will give anomalous results.

I have no idea what rifle you are using, and therefore I have no idea if your bumping the shoulder back 0.003" has any validity or not.

Neither chamber headspace gages or cartridge headspace gages will tell you if the case head protrusion in a rifle is correct. This is the most critical of all chamber dimensions, because if too much case head is sticking out of the chamber, the case head will blow. This sort of dimension is carefully designed in, parts dimensioned at the factory, so when a rifle is assembled from factory parts, the case head will be properly supported. It can be off if some ignorant, crazy, gunsmith barreled your rifle, modified part dimensions by doing such wacky things as moving the barrel breech face forward, cutting the cone deep, or removing material from the back of the lugs. I am certain this list is not exhaustive. If you ever have a gunsmith barrel your rifle, particularly something with a cone breech, ask him how he sets cartridge case protrusion. If he does not know what you are talking about, don't have him barrel your rifle.

Slam has good points.
Here is some information that will cloud the issue and that most shooters do not know; just how much clearance/headspace is allowed in factory chambers and ammo? It is a lot more than most think and some would be scared if they knew. (No reason to be though). I picked at random the 270 Win and 7mm Rem Mag from my SAAMI book; Bottom line up front; you can have .013 clearance between a min cartridge and a max chamber on the 270. On the belted 7mm you could have .015 excess headspace (which is why we say to ignore the belt and make them seat on the shoulder). Surprised? Just because your gauges give you a .006 or so, allowance, that means nothing. Match your brass to your chamber. Now if you are shooting factory loads. forget all this. I can give you the numbers if anyone is interested.

For the 270 Win
http://www.saami.org/pubresour...270%20Winchester.pdf

Minimum cartridge dimension is 2.0526-0.007” = 2.0456”

Maximum chamber dimension is 2.0587”

2.0587 – 2.0456 = 0.0131”

That much case expansion may be allowable on the first firing, but I am skeptical that any case that expands that much once, will be in much of a condition to expand that much twice.

Maybe that is why Lee Enfield case life is around 3 to 5 reloads. That action is so flexible and shoulder to base distance was not standardized.

And that brings us to the next variable in the equation; how much does your reloading die bring the shoulder back down if you full length size. (which is, again, why you should fit the case to the chamber so it won't stretch any more)
Now, in the case of the belted cartridge, the answer is, of course, the die does not change the belt dimensions, if you FL size, so that is why we see more problems with belted reloaders than with rimless ones.

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Now, in the case of the belted cartridge, the answer is, of course, the die does not change the belt dimensions, if you FL size, so that is why we see more problems with belted reloaders than with rimless ones.

Shoulder to base distance is not controlled with belted magnums so it is very easy to set the shoulder too far back when sizing. I bought adjustable Sinclair belted magnum gages for my 375 H&H and 300 H&H magnum as shown in the article, Extending Cartridge Case Life http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar46.htm

In most my rifles I partial full length resize.

Reasons are the 375H&H and my .30-06.

The H&H has a really crappy case really for headspacing, so I allow it to headspace on the shoulder and just let the dies touch the shoulder.

The .30-06 is a different case, in that the headspace is out by close to 10 thou. Lugs aren't set back or anything, and it was a gift from my dad, and it is totally promiscuous in that it will shoot almost anything into a 1.25" group. Not bad for an old Brno from 1973.

I don't want the barrel to be set back, so I just let the die touch the shoulder and it's fine. I tend to regard it as being my .30-06 semi-improved.