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Cook-off temperature?
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I loaded up a bunch of .223 with BL-C(2) last night. I was going to go the range today, but slept in like the fat slob I am. I just now remembered I set those rounds in a flip-top case on the dashboard, in full view of Mr. Sun. I ran downstairs and got them then for sake of curiosity, stuck the old digital thermometer down into the spaces and measured. I got around 135 degrees right next to a shell. Obviously not high enough to cook a round, but what is high enough? The rounds are now in the icebox, cooling down...
 
Posts: 16534 | Location: Between my computer and the head... | Registered: 03 March 2008Reply With Quote
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You're gonna experiment, aren't you?

I'd GUESS 250+ degrees. You don't think ammo isn't kept in the sun in Iraq/Afganistan? I'll go upstairs and look in Hatcher's notebook to see if he has anything on it. If so, I'll post it.
 
Posts: 50 | Registered: 25 July 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by TripletDad:
You're gonna experiment, aren't you?

I'd GUESS 250+ degrees. You don't think ammo isn't kept in the sun in Iraq/Afganistan? I'll go upstairs and look in Hatcher's notebook to see if he has anything on it. If so, I'll post it.
No, I ain't gonna experiment. If I had not remembered the shells were there, I might have-- unwillingly. A new windshield has go to be expensive...
 
Posts: 16534 | Location: Between my computer and the head... | Registered: 03 March 2008Reply With Quote
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Hatcher did not have any specific temps - other than Frankford arsenal tested 4895 in M2 ball up to 140F for velocity. When they set off a 30-06 with a welder under a box to see what happens during a cook off, they got a 1/4 dent in a bar of soap. 22LR, 45ACP, 32auto didn't even dent the cardboard box.

A google search has black powder ignition at 300C or 572F. Goes down with the amount of sulphur goes up. Common ignition temps for fireworks


Nitroglycerin auto ignition temp is 270C, 518F ( Source )

Nitrocellulose auto ignition temp is 170C, 338F. ( Source )

With all that said, they will thermally decompose and change the properties of the power, but I don't think it would be possible to have a cook off in a car - unless the car is already on fire.

If anybody experiments, I'd recommend a little bit of powder in a large, open top tin can. You're just interested in the temp when it burns, not an explosion.
 
Posts: 50 | Registered: 25 July 2009Reply With Quote
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Come on Homebrew, you've got to have a toaster oven, theomometer and video camera around someplace??
 
Posts: 3034 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 01 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Well..I know pistol powder will cook off at somewhere below 350 degrees...

at least it will when loaded into a revolver left in the oven as a hiding place


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10164 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Well..I know pistol powder will cook off at somewher below 350 degrees...

at least it will when loaded into a revolver left in the oven as a hiding place

Oh, you gotta tell the story behind that one.
 
Posts: 50 | Registered: 25 July 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
Come on Homebrew, you've got to have a toaster oven, theomometer and video camera around someplace??


A few rounds in a microwave set on high for a few minutes might be interesting and/or entertaining.
 
Posts: 8169 | Location: humboldt | Registered: 10 April 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by TripletDad:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Well..I know pistol powder will cook off at somewher below 350 degrees...

at least it will when loaded into a revolver left in the oven as a hiding place

Oh, you gotta tell the story behind that one.


Didn't "Myth Busters" do that?
 
Posts: 8169 | Location: humboldt | Registered: 10 April 2002Reply With Quote
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The sources to check are the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets).
quote:
This is from Accurate's MSDSs for smokeless powder, both single based and double based:

AUTOIGNITION TEMPERATURE: 160°C – 180°C (320° F - 360°F)


Then you have to concern yourself with the primers because they use different explosive compounds.
quote:
This is from Federal's MSDS:

Auto Ignition Temperature (F): Primers can ignite when heated over 250 degrees (may ignite independent of air).




.
 
Posts: 10900 | Location: North of the Columbia | Registered: 28 April 2008Reply With Quote
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at work we have atleast 1 cookoff a week but that is shooting 70,000 roundes a day though 18 guns the barrels need to be about red hot and if you have a stopage and pull the bolt to the rear when the cool air gets to the primer they cookoff.
 
Posts: 166 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 October 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by MT:
at work we have atleast 1 cookoff a week but that is shooting 70,000 roundes a day though 18 guns the barrels need to be about red hot and if you have a stopage and pull the bolt to the rear when the cool air gets to the primer they cookoff.
chain guns?




.
 
Posts: 10900 | Location: North of the Columbia | Registered: 28 April 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by craigster:
quote:
Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
Come on Homebrew, you've got to have a toaster oven, thermometer and video camera around someplace??


A few rounds in a microwave set on high for a few minutes might be interesting and/or entertaining.
The crazy sparking would have me turning it off in about two seconds...
 
Posts: 16534 | Location: Between my computer and the head... | Registered: 03 March 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by homebrewer:
quote:
Originally posted by craigster:
quote:
Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
Come on Homebrew, you've got to have a toaster oven, thermometer and video camera around someplace??


A few rounds in a microwave set on high for a few minutes might be interesting and/or entertaining.
The crazy sparking would have me turning it off in about two seconds...



Years ago we tried a few primers in an oven. Just one would make the door jump open a little.




.
 
Posts: 10900 | Location: North of the Columbia | Registered: 28 April 2008Reply With Quote
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It wasn't me...

A fellow deputy (at the time) who last I heard was the Captain over Internal Affairs went on vacation. he was living in an artment and while reasoanbly secure he decided to hide his duty weapon in the oven (S&W 66).

He and his wife got home and he went to the store...she decided to bake some cookies...pre-heated the oven...boom


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10164 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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M240s 70,000 1 day of firing and 30,000 M249 Barrel change ever 200 rounds but after you put about 1000 rounds in each barrel with the outside temp around 100 if you have a stoppage chances are you will have a cook-off if the round do not extract. I think in a microwave the electricity would set off the round before heat I had a 10/22 go off when I leaned it on a eclectic fence the gun was on safe and I did not get shocked but the gun went off.
 
Posts: 166 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 October 2009Reply With Quote
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I would certainly stay under 250 degrees ;

Check out Dept. of the Army pdf page # 4

http://www.federalpremium.com/...CenterfirePistol.pdf


In his book "Gunshot Wounds" Vincent Di Maio describes various experiments where ammunition was heated in ovens. He says that .22 long rifle cartridges detonate at an average of 275F, .38 Special at 290F and 12 gauge shotgun shells at 387F. The interesting thing about these furnace experiments was that in all instances the cartridge cases ruptured, but the primers did not detonate. In fact the primers were removed from some of the ruptured cases, reloaded into other brass and fired.


# Temperature of storage. The rate of decomposition of explosives increases at higher temperatures. All of the standard military explosives may be considered to have a high degree of stability at temperatures of -10 to +35 °C, but each has a high temperature at which the rate of decomposition rapidly accelerates and stability is reduced.As a rule of thumb, most explosives become dangerously unstable at temperatures exceeding 70 °C.
# Exposure to the sun. If exposed to the ultraviolet rays of the sun, many explosive compounds that contain nitrogen groups will rapidly decompose, affecting their stability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive_material

http://www.carolinafirejournal...tab/275/Default.aspx



Black Powder Shot Shells ; http://www.blackdawgecartridge...DawgeAmmunition1.pdf
 
Posts: 4485 | Location: Planet Earth | Registered: 17 October 2008Reply With Quote
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Myth Busters did indeed do a show about ammo and guns left in ovens. If the round that cooked off was in a weapon, the results were like it had been fired normally. If the rounds were cooked off loose, the damage was insignificant.
In my misspent youth, I was a Boy Scout and at one of our meetings, we had a fellow, if I remember correctly, from the Sheriff's department give a talk on gun safety, etc. During the talk, he put a rifle cartridge on a hot plate and covered it with a ordinary cardboard box. I can't remember what the cartridge was but it was at least a 30-30, not a .22 or anything like that.
When the round cooked off, the bullet did not move, the case was peeled open all along one side and had moved backwards a couple or three inches.
More recently, I was shooting a 22-250 on a hot day. My ammo was in a smoke coloured, plastic, flip top box. And I kept the box covered with a towel.
Curiousity got the better of me and I laid three rounds out in the sun (air temp in the low 90s). After about 20 minutes, I fired all three --using a long piece of string. All three pierced the primer even though the load was not nearly red-lined under normal circumstances. All three extracted easily and I didn't have my chrony set up so I don't know about velocity.


Aim for the exit hole
 
Posts: 4348 | Location: middle tenn | Registered: 09 December 2009Reply With Quote
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