I had a "Police Trained" sniper tell me last night that if I want to shoot a clover-leaf 1/2 MOA group, I would have to fire the shots in succession without rushing.

I wait 5 minutes btwn shots during testing. He said I'd never shoot a clover leaf waiting five minutes.

Where do they get these guys?

Keep in mind that the police force is much like the military, intelegance is not a requirement.

mike

Born

I think a lot depends on the distance. If you're trying to shoot a .5 MOA group at 100 yards you certainly need to watch conditions and shoot only when they are right. On the other hand, 1000 yard shooters do much better "running" since it's difficult to read subtle condition changes at that distance. These subtle , almost invisible changes. can result in groups all out of proportion to their perceived effect. So, the sniper is mostly right, IMHO.

Ray (1000 yard BR shooter)

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:
Born

I think a lot depends on the distance. If you're trying to shoot a .5 MOA group at 100 yards you certainly need to watch conditions and shoot only when they are right. On the other hand, 1000 yard shooters do much better "running" since it's difficult to read subtle condition changes at that distance. These subtle , almost invisible changes. can result in groups all out of proportion to their perceived effect. So, the sniper is mostly right, IMHO.

Ray (1000 yard BR shooter)

I would agree whole heartedly except for he was referring to the barrel temp and we were talking 100 yard groups. He was suggesting that the barrel must be warm to shoot a tight group. He asserted that you only need to wait just long enough to get back on target and squeeze the round off.

His daughter and my daughter play bball on the same team...this is not the first conversation we've had. He knows EVERYTHING. Just ask him!

I'm always suspicious of people who claim to be trained by "X agency" unless they are currently in that profession. Also, police agencies don't call their riflemen "snipers". "Sniper" has a very negative connotation for the general public.

BR shooters wait for the right conditions to fire each shot, to them time is irrelevent as long as they meet the the match time limits.

sounds like an example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. He was probly "trained" to shoot one way and then applying that to every situation, becuase he knows best and if you don't follow his advise your wrong. Man, I love those people.

Born To Hunt: The statute of limitations has run out now so I can fess up to this one.
Over many years (decades!) I used to stop by and watch the 20 man SWAT (Special Weapons And Tactics - formerly in less PC times Special Weapons Attack Teams!) every month at a range on the west coast. I was a life member of this range.
The SWAT teams would gather for their practice of all types every Tuesday (the range was closed to the public on Mondays and Tuesdays) and each Tuesday they would practice with different weapons in a kind of rotation.
I hit all the Sniper Rifle rotation days I could - so I could pick up the once fired Federal 223 and 308 brass that they discarded!
I have seen groups fired at 100 and 200 yards by these SWAT guys that were pretty consistently "good" to "very good" groups at those different ranges!
And the norm was for the SWAT members to fire rather rapidly for their sight in verification/practice groups! On many occassions the supervisors timed the SWAT snipers from getting their Rifles out of their trunks and out of their soild cases and getting a kill shot into a target at varying ranges! All this while a siren is blaring in their ear and folks are there specifically to distract them! They often practiced their regimens at night in the dark.
So "he" the smart ass cop may be relaying his version of how he has shot many "good" to "great" groups doing it the way he was instructed or the way they do it in his normal practices.
The SWAT guys do not always get to wait for a cool barrel or perfect conditions or the sun at their back or for a target to hold still etc!
Give the poor civil servant a break on this one!
And yes most Police Officers in fact are required to have certain levels of intelligence, education and common sense! As well as having certain psychological traits and tendencies and norms of conduct and behavior.
By the way over those years I collected the brass from my workmates I had occassion to observe certain of those "civil servants" shooting at that range who were later killed in the line of duty! As well as one who was kicked in the eye by a naked, drug crazed, negro youth! The resulting infection from that toenail scratch to his eye nearly caused him to loose his sight and required a lengthy and painful recovery! Another SWAT fellow was attacked and thrown head first into a steel dumpster causing him loose both his sense of smell (brain injury) and his hearing in one ear along with balance trouble and the onset of debilitating headaches! One of the female SWAT members (I was her field training officer when she was a rookie!) was sent to a family disturbance where an adult, homosexual, drug crazed son was beating his own parents! In the ensuing melee the female officer was bitten and contracted Hepatits "C" from this cretin! Whats Hepatitis "C" you ask - its the kind of Hepatitis that diminishes your life span by 30%! Another SWAT member became disabled at the scene of a "bomb threat" where it just was not a threat and he was clearing an office building when tragedy struck him!
I could go on and on - and maybe I will!
I had a friend that served with me on the board of directors of a 16,000 member Gun Collectors Association (he was a Deputy Sheriff of the county in which the town I served was located) he was shot with a load of double ought buck shot from a sawed off 12 gauge! He was permanently disabled. In 1997 he was at the NRA Annual Meetings and held up his newborn Grandchild at the main meeting there and the child was acknowledged as the youngest "NRA Life Member there. My friend is an Endowment member of the NRA and very active there in!
This friends long time partner was later killed by being stabbed with a Samuri sword while serving a warrant there in my old home town!
I once sold 12 NRA memberships and renewals at a roll call of around 60 Police Officers!
An NRA member, former partner of mine and a thrice decorated (with Purple Hearts) Viet Nam veteran was killed by a shotgun blast from a bank robbing urban youth! This youth had been arrested more than 20 times for serious crimes!!! And yet he was out on the streets robbing and killing due to folks like you who elect shit for brains judges and politicians!
In my opinion give the poor SWAT guy a pass on his "know it all" attitude, shooting advice or just ignore him!
But be careful about denigrating the poor smucks who take it upon themselves to try and protect us all and yet have very few tools (LAWS and policies) that will help them get the job done! And another point I want to make (have been alluding to!) is how pro-Gun most police officers are. Not Chiefs of Police especially! But the average line officer or detective is really most often VERY pro-gun!
I have two retired PD friends who are Gun Shop owners! Another is a custom leather holster maker. Another owns a shooting aid producing company! The president of the Police Union that I used to belong to was killed in a car accident 2 years ago driving home from the Camp Perry Matches where he had just competed! One of my ex-partners (Felix M. "Bud" Solis) has held national records in several pistol disciplines and now is breaking records in high power and long range competions along with his former sillohuette records! He loves being a cop and a more humble and personable person you would be hard pressed to find!
I shoot my targets (and hopefully cloverleaf groups) more like you profess, and think its best to do it that way! Slowly and with great care - of course my targets are not shooting back at me or threatening someones life!
Long live SWAT!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

fired at 100 and 200 yards by these SWAT guys that were pretty consistently "good" to "very good" groups at those different ranges!
And the norm was for the SWAT members to fire rather rapidly for their sight in verification/practice groups! On many occassions the supervisors timed the SWAT snipers from getting their Rifles out of their trunks and out of their soild cases and getting a kill shot into a target at varying ranges! All this while a siren is blaring in their ear and folks are there specifically to distract them! They often practiced their regimens at night in the dark.
So "he" the smart ass cop may be relaying his version of how he has shot many "good" to "great" groups doing it the way he was instructed or the way they do it in his normal practices.
The SWAT guys do not always get to wait for a cool barrel or perfect conditions or the sun at their back or for a target to hold still etc!
Give the poor civil servant a break on this one!
And yes most Police Officers in fact are required

Easy Varmint Guy!

The guy's profession is a moot point to me. I could accept the fact if he relayed his experience based upon training. This guy also claims to have been the editor of some predator hunting rag. He keeps justifying his determination via telling where he's been and what he has done. It is like my dad always told me, "I never kiled anyone in Vietnam...I just did my job. Anyone who is a war hero doesn't come home and tell his story. His story will tell itself."

The sun shines on a dogs rear now and again. There is no doubt that some excellent groups have been fired under some weird circumstances. This guy is saying THE ONLY WAY one can fire a clover leaf 1./2 MOA group is to fire the shots consecutively as quickly as you can re-sight and squeeze the trigger. Further, he listens to no logic, claims to be a reloader, yet couldn't remember any of the specifics for loads that had shot well for him. Just sounds suspicious to me.

I for one salute the civil servants who protect us daily. I'm an assistant elementary school principal and taught in a high school for six years prior to taking this job. Believe me, I know what it is like to deal with difficult people while your hands are tied behind your back.

While many LEOs are gun guys, many are not, my dad is a not. Being on a SWAT team doesn't necessarily mean you know evrything about everything gun related. In many dept. the SWAT guys only shoot a bit better than the regular duty guys, been there done that, so use your own exp. as a guide. I've shot nice groups both ways so I would cry BS.

V.G. Thats more action than most big cities see in a lifetime. Where are you from, just want to stay away.

Born to Hunt

Shoot 5 groups your way.... Then shoot 5 groups his way...
Let us know what happens.

My gunsmith is a former Marine rifle competitor, a former police pistol competitor and builds some damned fined rifles, mostly on Mauser and WW actions. Most of his rifles will shoot cloverleafs with at least one load. I have seen him test firing rifles, and he is not one to wait between shots. Generally, he will fire just as fast as he can aim and let fly.

I don't know who is "right." I know that it is important in a hunting gun to be able to hit from a cold barrel the same place every time. It has been my experience that a standard weight barrel will not heat up enough to change the point of aim over three quick shots. I also find that most of my rifles will be hotter than I like to get them if I fire more than three or four shots in quick succession.

As I have progressed in shooting and been able to afford good shooting rifles, I realize how important wind doping is to accuracy. A relatively light, variable wind can take away a good group even at 100yds. Shooting quickly might reduce this variable, which might be the ticket for conditions at a particular range or with a particular shooter.

I suspect, however, that firing a cloverleaf group is more about having a good rifle and being a good shot than how fast (or slow) one shoots. Kudude

Personally, If I waited 5 minutes between shots when i'm shooting groups there wouldn't be enough time in the day.

I only shoot 5 shot groups and it takes me less than 5 minutes to shoot each group, it would take atleast 20 minutes if I waited 5 minutes between each shot, that would be a waist of time as far as i'm concerned especially seeing as my groups are all less than MOA and most half that.

I might wait 5 minutes between groupes, sometimes.

VarmintGuy,

No ammount of service or self-sacrifice excuses someone from being an "I know-it-all, and what you know is wrong" type of prick.

The two things are completely seperate.

Medal of Honor winners are, by definition, heroes,
but that doesn't mean that they can't also be
assholes as well.... infact many were.

I know a man who won two silver stars, but when he starts talking about technical aspects of certain firearms I have to tell him to shut up, because he just doesn't know what he's
talking about and it grates on me to hear anyone who's just so WRONG who is hell bent to prove it!

BS is BS regardless of what orifice you withess it being spewed forth from.....

as for the specific quoted BS above we all know that a barrel allowed to rest so the temperature is the same for all shots
can easily send all the bullets through a single hole,

I regard a good time to wait is however long it takes me to walk (casually) to the 200yd target stands and back....

When I'm shooting at a woodchuck I usually only get ONE shot at it so for me the most important shot is that one shot from a cold barrel, but that doesn't mean that cold shot to cold shot my rifle isn't consistant.

"Cloverleafs"? My varmint rifle bulletholes are usually close enough together so that they don't look like cloverleafs....

AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by Born to Hunt:
I had a "Police Trained" sniper tell me last night that if I want to shoot a clover-leaf 1/2 MOA group, I would have to fire the shots in succession without rushing.

I wait 5 minutes btwn shots during testing. He said I'd never shoot a clover leaf waiting five minutes.

Where do they get these guys?

Loony or not, it would be interesting to meet him at the range and test the theory. If he's right, you'll have learned something. If he's wrong, my guess is there will always be some reason why he can't make it to the range that weekend...

Seems I've stirred a little bit of controversy. I am relatively new to loading and I have never attended a "shoot" of any kind other than my own trips to the range.

I have tried to take the advice offered by members of this board because I don't personally know a single shooter who has been a bench rest shooter. You guys are at present time, my only source of info. on shooting related topics.

If it is ok to shoot faster than five minutes apart, I'm all for it. I have four factory rifles that I've tried to shoot since I started loading plus a couple of my dad's.

Maybe I've misinterpreted the advice I've read here since becoming a member and I'll stand down if I'm wrong, but I have interpreted posts that I've read here many times to mean that overheating a barrel causes big problems. I thought five shots fired quickly through a sporter weight rifle would make the barrel so hot that erratic groups would result??? Now, I'm really confused.

One thing for sure, I'll try some different techniques on my next range trip! I usually take three or four rifles to the range so that I shoot one and then the other. By the time I've shot rifle number four, looked at all the targets, and get back to the first one fired, five minutes has elapsed. I just want to effectively and honestly evaluate a specific load so that I may determine what shoots best in a particular rifle.

Well Varmintguy I have been in law enforcement for 28 plus years now. Fire arms instructor ect ect.
Sure Swat guys get hurt so do other officers.

Most Swat guys I deal with are not firearms people ,some are they are the ones that take their shooting serious the rest don't.

When I am talking with a swat guy and he can tell me the make, model, type of scope of the gun and what ammo he uses ect then I know he is a guy gun and has a good chance of knowing what he is talking about.

Other wise their a good chance he was pick for the swat team because thats what he wanted and had the pull to get there.

I shoot with swat guys I out shoot most of them. But then Iam a gun guy I know what guns and ammo Iam using, plus I know what they are shooting.

As with most officers I'll give them all some what of a pass just for being law enforcement after that they have to prove themselfs.

Now back to the subject I shoot groups as fast as I can aim them properly. I have yet to have a deer, p dog or other critter stand around 5 min per shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Born to Hunt:
...I have interpreted posts that I've read here many times to mean that overheating a barrel causes big problems. I thought five shots fired quickly through a sporter weight rifle would make the barrel so hot that erratic groups would result??? Now, I'm really confused....

Hey BTH, Overheating a barrel can shorten how long it remains accurate. Meaning you might have a barrel capable of making 3000-7000 shots before accuracy is gone, but by over heating you "might" reduce that to 500-2000 shots.

It also depends on how thick the barrel is, which steel it is made from, if you are using Moly, the amount of Powder in the cartridge, the Pressure Level and if the Bore is coated. Lots of things go into it.

As long as you stop "before" the barrel is uncomfortable to hold, you won't hurt the barrel.

If I shot my 223Rem 5-shots real quick, it would be fine. If I did the same thing with one of my Belted Mags then the barrel would be too hot - for me.

That said, when you are shooting at distance, the environmental conditions are constantly changing, as others have mentioned above. If you want good groups at distance, then you either shoot quickly, or learn to read Wind Indicators. Here again, the HEAVY barrel is an advantage - at distance - both for having more mass to absorb the heat as well as being less effected by slight shooter movement, heart beat, breathing, etc.

You are doing the right thing by taking multiple rifles to the Range. Don't forget the 22LR for Off-Hand plinking. Run some Bore Cleaner in them every 6-9 shots, wipe it out and set them with the bolts open and muzzles up so they cool faster.
---

When the barrel gets hot - it's time to STOP.

If there is one thing that I have learned about rifles through the years is to never say never, or this is the only way it can be done.
The time you wait between shots should depend on what results you are looking for from the rifle. As mentioned in a situation such as ground hogs, coyotes , and most big game the shot that matters is #1 because that is the shot where things are usually in your favor. Once the animal starts moving the odds are stacked in the animals favor. So if you are looking for what happens from a cold barrel, by all means let the barrel cool between shots. If you are a prairie dog shooter a five shot string fired in a relitively short time would be a good "test" of your rifles accuracy under field conditions. One of my favorite ways to measure the performance of my varmint or big game rifles is to place a target at 100,200,300,&400 yards. Load the rifle and shoot one shot at each target 1-4, let the rifle cool for 15 min. and repeat starting with 200 and shoot all four, cool and repeat 3-2 etc. When I have gone through the process for 3-5 times I then pull the targets. This will give you a very accurate assessment of your ability and of the rifle accuracy under various conditions.

I have always thought that the wait a bit (certainly not 5 minutes) was to prolong barrel life.

My favorite Swat BS was when one told me that where ever his lazer sight was, that's where the bullet would strike.

I told him that was incorrect (nicely) and he began to argue to point even tho I mentioned trajectory and wind drift.

He finally asked his buddy who agreed with me.

Many LEOs get into SWAT due to pull and/or favortism.

by the way, I'm an ex LEO. (worst kind-ex cop )

Take a look at some of the groups B.R. shooters hammer out shooting eight or ten shots in a matter of 50 seconds or so.

Born to Hunt, Sounds to me like this guy does not know what the heck he is talking about. "police trained" doesn't really mean this guy has any ballistic (internal, external, or terminal) knowledge. If he did go to a "sniper" course that taught him this knowledge, then shame on them. I have shot many groups well under 1/2 MOA (5shots) shooting only cold bore shots, and even from a clean cold bore barrel (this was done with a custom built rifle to my specs, cleaning completely after every shot, as well as some M-24s I have been assigned). This is all coming from me who IS an Army sniper with 5 years experience in a sniper section, 2 combat deployments as a Sniper, and several thousand rounds down range through my own rifle, as well as the M-24s I have had assigned to me. So tell him from one Sniper to another (as he claims to be) he is full of sh**
thank you,
-shadow4 out

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
VarmintGuy,

No ammount of service or self-sacrifice excuses someone from being an "I know-it-all, and what you know is wrong" type of prick.

You got that right ,Allan. roger

Last clover-leaf group I shot was about five years ago, out of my Remington Model 700 in 7MM mag. I had fired two rounds, and they touched. I was taking up trigger "slack" on the third round when a T/C popped two tables over, and I flinched, pulling the shot about an inch and a half low and to the right. I checked the barrel and it felt a bit warm, so I took the rifle off the bench, set it in the rack with the bolt open, and played with something else. About 15 minutes later, the fourth shot turned the prior two that touched into Mickey Mouse ears, and I figured the load was good enough to hunt with...