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| one of us |
I recently recieved the question below from a customer. It poses an interesting problem that has never ocurred to me. Any comments from medically trained people on this? "We recently had the opportunity to x-ray a shoulder from a blesbuck shot with a jacketed lead bullet that fragmented completely. We were shocked to see how many microscopic lead fragments, invisible to the naked eye, were present. I shudder to think how much lead I have eaten in my lifetime. Do you think this is something to be concerned about?" ------------------ | ||
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| <goneballistic> |
Can anyone give a brief synopsis of that, translated into English? | ||
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one of us |
Dave, the sites give descriptions of the symptoms of lead poisoning and possible sources thereof. As an aside, the fear of lead poisoning is why I started re-loading with X-bullets when I got my own stuff 6 years ago. Especially with two little tykes, no need to take a risk. FWIW, Dutch. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
One of the better andidotes for lead is vitamin C. It binds with the lead, and escorts it out. Of course, it takes along other metals, such as zinc, manganese, etc. that you really need, so you need to supplement with those if you're taking big doses of C. BTW, smokers tend to be very low in C. Possible double whammy if you smoke and cast bullets. | |||
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| <Fat Bastard> |
Triple whammy. The lead gets from your fingers onto the cigarette, then goes into your lungs. I sometimes deal with removing lead paint from structural steel, and IIRC, that's the most efficient way to get lead into you. | ||
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| one of us |
Gentlemen It is no doubt that exposure to lead is harmful and not good for your health. I wish some body manufactured air gun pellets and .22lr with non toxical bullets. I have seen plenty of young boys and girls shooting in very poorly ventilated shooting clubs and it is very harmful for them because the lead exposore can cause serious problems to their health and damage their reproduction capcity . in hunting situation if you are not living of your games maybe not so hazardous,but why not using a better alternative if it exists?I am very glad that the bullet makers take their responsabillty and try to devlope better products. Hi Gerard Please continue your good work. Danny | |||
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| Administrator |
When we were little boys, we used to fill our mouths with air rifle pellet. I would imagine we had them in our mouths for most of the days! I have not noticed anything "wrong" me, despite the fact of complaints from others referring to me as being "funny"! ------------------ www.accuratereloading.com | |||
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| one of us |
Saeed, you and I both! Always had those pellets in my mouth while sneaking up on those dastardly starlings! Do you remember how sweet it tasted? My understanding is that airborne lead is more efficient in entering the body. All I'd like to say to old Nr. 7: the Romans didn't believe in lead-poisoning, either. Look where it took them..... Dutch. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
hi Saeed and Dutch I did the same thing when I was a kid. You are certainly much younger than me and haven't yet felt the side effekts of lead poisoning,but when you reach my age you may regret it a lot !! because the side effekts are coming later when you wish to do a lot and you can only do just a little!. Danny | |||
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| <Mark> |
The problem with low level lead poisoning, as well as other heavy metals, is that the symptoms are very subtle. They usually effect the endocrine system and can also create neurological problems. An interesting study was done in the Kola Peninsula, Siberia. There was an unusual amount of cases of heavy metal poisoning in the local population. The researchers assumed that the problem was the infamous pollution in Siberia. However, the only source that they could find was the lead shot the people used to hunt ducks and geese. Another point about smoking is the high levels of cadmium found in smokers. The amount that the Inuit ingest in their local diet (a lot) isn't much compared to the amount inhaled while smoking. ------------------ | ||
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| One of Us |
I think I have read a few times that lead poisoning of the level shooters my be exposed to only effects young children before the full development of their brain. Mike | |||
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| <Mark> |
Correction: I meant to say Selenium and not Cesium. Cesium is a radionuclide and I can't imagine that it would be of benefit to anyone or anything. ------------------ | ||
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| <Patrick_D> |
Hmmm, I don't mean this as a very strong criticism, but Gerard represents a company that markets monometallic (copper or copper alloy) bullets. I am sure that he's keen on debate like the rest of us, but I do feel tha there may be some conflict of interest here. Of course, if I'm wrong, I offer unreserved apologies to Gerard. I wouldn't like the honesty of these forums to become tinged by commercial considerations. Patrick | ||
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| one of us |
Patrick, in the same not-accusational spirit, if a vendor like Gerard is not going to bring this up, who is? The lead bullet guys? This forum has a good history of running off blatantly commercial posters (and im-posters), much to their detriment. A colonel comes to mind..... JMO, Dutch. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
While still gunsmithing in the eighties, I was heavily involved in practical pistol shooting and manufactured and supplied cast lead bullets to reloaders. As we were registered as a factory we had the inspectors from National Occupational Safety Association visit regularly to ensure we don't kill ourselves and our employees. On one occasion (about 1991) the inspector brought with him a new set of regulations that were put in place to regulate the use of lead. The regulations were so restrictive that we decided to give up manufacturing lead bullets and encouraged the shooters to do so themselves. The main problem as I saw it at that time, was with the inhalation of airborne lead due to the melting and casting process. Absorption through the skin from handling the product seemed to pose a lesser hazard. Completely outside of my sphere of knowledge is what the effects of oral ingestion would be, and this prompted my post. The regulations did not address the ingestion issue other than providing for adequate washing facilities being provided when employees leave the manufacturing area and prior to entering an area where food or drink could be consumed. Regular medical monitoring of workers via blood and urine analysis was called for, so it raises the question of how long it takes your body to get rid of this type of toxin. My customer asked a question to which I have no answer, and I posted to the forum with no other motive than raising some answers and opinions from a broad base of expertise. An interesting point is the fact that the lead bullet guys obviously would not want this discussed. Surely there must be some medical opinions out there that can give some conclusive answers whether we should be concerned or not? ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
Do you guys remember how sweet the oil tasted in the yellow boxes of Sheridan pellets? I even remember swallowing a few when trying to beat wounded ground squirrels to their holes! | |||
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| <R. A. Berry> |
Gerard, Of course we should be concerned. That is why we have to screen those babies with blood lead levels. That is why they took the lead out of gasoline and waterfowl loads, etc., etc. I am suspicious of any ceramic glazed coffee cup. I don't want to cast lead bullets. I don't want to load shotgun shells or shoot black powder lead balls. I don't even want to carry a bag of lead shot to the range as a sissy bag for fear I might be putting lead dust into the air when I fire the big bores. I don't drink moonshine for fear of lead poisoning. Give me copper, bronze, steel, or tungsten to load my cartridges with. Only lead if I can't get anything else. BTW, any of these metals would be indistinguishable from the others by x-ray appearance. Splashes of copper would look much the same on an x-ray. ------------------ | ||
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Moderator |
I agree with Bwana Ron (what the heck does daktari mean anyway, I just thought it was the name of a TV show!) in that an X ray exposure cannot differentiate between metals like how the person stated. There are ways that I am aware, but the lack of their mention makes me somewhat suspicious of the validity of this statement. Another thing is I don't care how pulverized the stuff is, I bet if you bite into it you will notice the crunchy texture. Another thing, I suppose I've never been that hungry but any meat with fragments in it will be pretty bloodshot, and I never eat that part, don't even use it for sausage, but I guess others may. Gerard, can you ask the person for a scan of the X ray? Also, how does one go about giving an X ray to a blesbuck anyway? If it exists I would be interested in seeing it, as I may be wrong, but I doubt it. Also, what caliber and type of bullet would be interesting too. And you other guys, shame on you getting me drifting off remembering about running around with lead pellets in my mouth! Lindley, I've forgotten about the smell of sheridan pellets, might have to go out and buy a box. The last box I got (probably 15 years ago) was red and had diablo pellets, but everyone knows real sheridan pellets are the funny cylindrical ones. I lived in the country a lot growing up and the 20 caliber sheridan pellets were hard to find, plus they were $5.99 a box, so I often would buy 22 caliber pellets and resize the heads with a pair of pliers! the bolt would push the skirt in just fine and would give a good seal. They worked well enough to hunt with. I had a Feinwerkbau 177 rifle before the sheridan but I actually shot it so much I wore the sear out! Of course, all my friends carried pellets in their mouths too, and so pellets got swallowed somewhat frequently. My understanding is that lead poisoning is usually transferred from the hands to the mouth, so just wash your hands a lot when working with lead bullets, and never put anything in your mouth without washing your hands first. | |||
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| <R. A. Berry> |
Mark, Swahili: "daktari" = doctor "mbogo" = buffalo, as in cape buffalo "nyati" = water buffalo ...according to a Swahili dictionary I have. I guess that TV show about Clarence the cross-eyed lion was titled in reference to a vet in the story. I am a people doctor, M.D. ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
No, no worries. The lead passes through your gut and out unchanged. Why are you eating blood shot meat? Ick. : )) Anyway, the surface area is not large enough to get any measurable amount of lead into your system. Lead oxides or dust, eaten or inhaled can cause a problem. You might absorb some of that. How much, I'm not sure. The lead scare became apparent with kids eating paint chips. I repeat, purposely eating lead oxide!! This is not the same as lead metal. The acid in your gut will puts lots of lead ions into solution with the oxides. An old doctor friend of mine was a family GP for forty years and never saw a confirmed case of lead poisoning. Should say something!! I have my lead level tested every year, as part of my medical screening for work. I have never had a level that was in the slightest elevated. I shoot, a lot, cast bullets and handle lots of lead. I do not eat finely divided lead powder or inhale lead dust though!!! I do wash my hands after I handle lead. Just take some common sense precautions. I personally believe lead is another environmental Trojan Horse. Do not worry about exposure to lead metal in meat or handling it. Just my opinion. | |||
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| one of us |
If you are really concern about lead poisoning, chance are you have already drank a lot of lead. From what I've learned about about water treatment operations/distributions and water coming out of your faucet, and a average you are expose to .5 to 2 mg/l of lead per gallon of water. Another fine example or fact, I did a internship with a world-wide known company which process ultra pure water for wafer/chips assembly and for every 13 million gallon of water that they reprocess or retreat, they end up with about 9 pounds of lead and about 30 to 40 pounds of copper. Guess what? the water that was reprocess, it came from the city treatment plant which is use for drinking water. So I ask the treatment foreman why use the city water of all place in the world with all the impurity, lead, copper and so forth and his response was that the city's water was the best they could find even though they could of built this faculity anywhere in the world. The biggest reason why there is lead in our drinking water, is because most water pipe contained lead to prevent corrisons. ------------------ | |||
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| <Doc Garnett> |
Y'all are just kiddin', right? All the shot-with-lead bullets and pellets birds, ducks, squirrels, rabbits, venison, etc... I've eaten in my almost 50 years hasn't affected me a bit! me a bit! me a bit! me a bit! me a bit! me a bit! me a bit! me a bit! me a bit! -- Doc Doc Doc | ||
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| <Matt77> |
Hmm, I think I am going to take Dr. Berry's advice. After all, who has the Ph.D in Medicine here? Simple. It's not going overboard. Wash your hands, etc.... I wouldn't run my own roundballs. I used to put split shot in my mouth to open and close it while fishing, but that was when I was young. Probably did do damage to my brain. So does sucking in 80-100 parts per million of smog more than 5 - 10 times a month. But, if there wasn't a problem, the professionals wouldn't say otherwise. It's too bad groups form to sue people/ For instance. A group was founded and sued retailers of angling supplies. Why? Because they didn't have the California Lead warnign near the display of sinkers (these law suits took place in CAlifornia). The group wasn't concerned about health, just finding a loophole and making money from it. | ||
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| one of us |
"But, if there wasn't a problem, the professionals wouldn't say otherwise." I disagree, on the strongest terms. Follow the money. The enviornmental extremists and their lawlers make huge sums from suits with no merrit. They sell misinformation using psuedo science and outright lies. The lead phobia is an example of this. A lot of lead is bad. Trace amounts is not. Cast your bullets, load your shotshells, just use some common sense precautions. | |||
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| <Mark> |
I agree that the perception of risk from a hazard is sometimes greater than the hazard itself. Sometimes the opposite is true. I do not agree, however, that trace amounts of lead are OK. There is very little data on small long term exposure to lead or any other heavy metal. It is impossible to perform a scientific study to prove or disprove this. Imagine exposing an organism to lead for 20 years+ in a controlled environment. And then trying to apply this to humans. I am not saying that it is worth worrying about, just that the effects aren't known so it is best to take precautions. All of which were noted earlier. And for God's sake don't put lead pellets in your mouth! You might be exposing yourself to higher levels of lead than if you would have eaten them. ------------------ | ||
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| <landtrain> |
IMHO--The only time we should have any concern about dieing from lead poisoning is when were on the receiving end of a load of "00" Buck. There are far too many politically correct ways to go to worry about this one... | ||
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| <Mike M> |
Holy Christ R.A., You mean I've got to give up shootin' AND moonshine.--- I think I'll just go ahead and cut my throat now! | ||
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| one of us |
Gentlemen. I can only speak for myself, and my personal experiences with lead. I've been casting and shooting lead bullets for many years, over 47 years to be more precise. I first started in the basement of my home. No ventilation. Later I worked for a now long defunct outfit casting bullets. There were as many as five of us working at the same time in a rather small, unventilated area. I did this for several years. After that I continued casting for myself and did a short stint of commercial reloading. Again in poorly ventilated areas. Never gave it much thought. Finally, about two years ago, with all the fuss about lead poisoning, I had a lead level check done while getting all the other tests for my annual physical. Guess what? My lead levels were lower than what was considered normal. Methinks people make much ado about nothing. I did wash my hands after casting, but I did smoke while casting. Luck? Who knows? I think it's the same thing as when the school nurse drops the mercury thermometer, and it breaks on the floor. They close the whole darn school for a week. Looks like overreaction to me, but what the heck. I suppose it is better to safe than sorry, but I also think certain do-gooders are carrying things way too far. I would like to see honest data about the hazards of lead in our hobby, and not the witch hunt garbage put out by outfits like the EPA. Paul B. | |||
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| <monstertigger> |
Seems to me that with all the hype and regulations and awareness of lead poisoning. The amount of lead exposure from day to day has been significantly reduced. By that fact we should be able to continue to shoot and cast bullets (using safe practice) and still keep lead exposure to a minimum. Cast, shoot and shoot some more, have fun. And don't worry so much. | ||
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one of us |
Yep, just put a couple of .177's between your cheek and gum while creeping through the orange grove looking for sparrows and gophers. | |||
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| <wrangler> |
Interesting input from all. In reading all the previous posts, I see cadmium mentioned. This is what has replaced the lead in non-leaded gasoline. It is another heavy metal, one which has not been fully researched to my knowledge. The "greens" did you and I no favor when they pressed for the removal of lead from gasoline. They merely shifted the focus of the problem. If the atmosphere in the urban airsheds was found to contain high amounts of lead, and this was not "healthy", what makes you think that the cadmium is any safer. Just because some "expert" says there is no scientific proof that a given substance will harm you, doesn't mean that it is safe. As for whether or not absorption, ingestion, injection, or inhalation is the means of entry into the body, who cares? Any entry method will result in poisoning. We used to play with mercury (quicksilver) because it was "neat". We had probably handled close to twenty or thirty pounds of the stuff over the course of one summer. There is no doubt in my mind that I would probably test somewhere in the neighborhood of "low dolphin" to "high tuna". Any heavy metal is no good, plain and simple. | ||
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| <Ronnberg> |
Been casting for my whole life (8 years commercially) so have been present in melting mixing and casting over 20mio bullets. In addition to which frequent usage of indoor ranges. But common pre-cautions of proper ventilation (except for the ranges) has lead to my measured levels of lead still below average. Had a friend (also a shooter/caster) who (ten years ago) used to walk 2km through downtown to work - and he had very high levels of lead measured. Rgds., Peter | ||
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| one of us |
I read this Thread with great interest because I think that I might have lead poisoning. Just two days ago,I cast 8 bullets each, from 3 alloy batches, to find the average weight,and BHN of bullets from each alloy;grand total of 24 bullets. I have open windows,and fans,where I cast. I had No,ill effects. But,the following day,I diid the examination of the bullets,and that night I got severe headache,and a salty taste in my mouth;also general discomfort. The last couple of times that I did some casting,I had the same thing,but last night it was worse. I am thinking of quitting,before it's too late.I am definately going to have the Doctor give me a blood test for heavy metals. I've been casting for fifty years,and admit to being careless in my youth.I also shot in a lot of poorly ventilated ranges and I too,had a BB gun,a single shot,I had to use my mouth for a magazine. The main reason for this Post,is to alert you to the fact that lead IS a poison,and that the fresh,new bullets should be handled with care. good luck ------------------ | |||
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| <gamecock> |
Oh, my God!!! Not sinkers too! You mean that seemingly casual nibble or two when putting on or taking off a little, bitty sinker can send me to an early grave? I know I've read more about lead poisoning under this topic than I've read or herd about in my entire life, and it's mostly been interresting. But, since I'm in reasonably good health for a shooter and handloader of at least 50 years, all this information has led me to one conclusion: DON'T EAT LEAD BASED PAINT! [This message has been edited by glenn (edited 05-21-2001).] | ||
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| one of us |
Metallic lead has very low absorbtion and very low toxicity. It's the salts that get you. Lead acetate ets. Back in the '20's Lead arsenate was the "cotton poison" that everybody used 'cause it was the only thing and boll wevils were ravaging the land. In 1965 we investigated the poisoning of 30 or so cattle in LA(that's Lower Alabama). Nobody could figure out wher the lead arsenate was coming from. One old man remembered that when he was a boy there was a cotton house in the field. Looking around we found a place on the ground were cattle were licking. Lead arsenate is salty. The poison had been stored in the shed which fell down over the years releasing the chemical as the bags fell apart. It was all forgotten until the owner forgot to put out a salt lick for the cattle and they found salt of a kind. This was arsenic poisoning . They didn't live long enough to get lead poisoning. | |||
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| <Mark> |
There is another factor involved in heavy metal poisoning that hasn't been mentioned yet. Heavy metals, like mercury and lead, can convert into the organic compounds of methyl mercury and methyl lead. Both of these substances are more posonous to humans than the inorganic elements Hg and Pb. Inorganic lead is what you would be using in your cast bullets. This process is caused by microorganisms in the environment and then the organic compounds enter the food chain. These are the serious environmental chemicals that settle in the North and South Poles and also in the game we eat. However, every study that I have read indicates that the advantages in eating wild game far outway the cost in contaminants (except in very specific localized pollution). This applies to Inuit living in the Arctic and eating an almost exclusive meat diet. ------------------ | ||
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| <Slamfire> |
I read that the Roman's trouble with lead came from using it as a preservative in expensive wine. That is why it affected the patritians more than the plebes. I don't know a lot about lead, but non-organic mercury was present in large quanities in a place I worked. The Swedish techs who taught us said that until your teeth actually fell out, all of the symptoms were reversable. After that brain damage occured. | ||
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| one of us |
Well what a bunch of happy loaders we have all turned out to be. I thought I would turn on the site to get some light relief, only to find gloom and doom.Well thanks for reminding me how I and all of my shooting buddies use to put the pellets in our mouths,grey fingers from carrying pellets in our pockets and shiny grey legs,they were the good o'l days,and if lead poisoning was the only thing I had to worry about in this day and age then I would be a happy man,your more likely to die of stress,worrying about what the politicians are trying to do our sport. I know the sort of lead poisoning I would like them to have!!!! Griff | |||
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