After reading Ingwe623's post on inadequate neck tension I wonder if it could be caused by neck lube.

Do you use it or not?

I use it, but before priming and charging, I do clean the inside neck.

Ingwe's thread was about using the Lee Collet Neck Sizer

NO lube inside the neck needed on that die

No lube needed on a bushing die unless you are leaving the expander in

Lube needed inside the neck with expander ball type dies which I will not use.....oops only on one the 375 Ruger which I haven't got around to custom ordering a Lee Collet for yet

Do you lube the inside of the case neck before seating a bullet???

NO NO NO NO

Ted why not?

As you know I am new to this. I thought that the graphite (Dip into Jar) type lube was to lube the neck for bullet seating??

You lube necks to ease the expander whilst it is riding through the neck; it is not for bullet seating. But I don't remove it before bullet seating, and have good neck tension. I use mica. Used graphite for years but got tired of the black stains on my fingers. ( I use Hornady lube with my fingers; I have ink pad type of lubing too but just prefer to use the wax type on my thumb and forefinger.)

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Do you lube the inside of the case neck before seating a bullet???

Should have distinguished between wet lube and dry lube

Still do not need any kind of lube with a Lee Collet (wet or dry) but I do use dry lube before bullet seating like dpcd



Ted was answering NO because Ingwe's thread and your question was regarding lube before the SIZING operation

IOW if you are sizing with an expander ball (only with the expander ball dies) then you NEED lube and you can CHOOSE to use dry lube before seating

I think that my question wasn't written correctly.

What I am asking is do you lube/dry lube a case neck when SEATING BULLETS.

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
After reading Ingwe623's post on inadequate neck tension I wonder if it could be caused by neck lube.

Do you use it or not?

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:

I think that my question wasn't written correctly.

What I am asking is do you lube/dry lube a case neck when SEATING BULLETS

OK correct me if I am wrong but Ingwe's thread was about a sizing operation, not a seating question. If there is another thread of Ingwe's, direct me to it and I will see if I can add some info

I am confused but that is normal; IF your question is lubing only for seating bullets after you have already resized and expanded, the answer is NO.
Having said that, since I don't remove the mica left over from my inside neck expanding operations, I guess you could say it does have some residual lube in the neck, which I do not remove. However, my bullets still are tight.

The inside of the neck should be completely free of any oil or wax type lubricant. Otherwise it can contaminate the powder, possibly causing variances in internal ballistics. Regardless, you don't want burning sludge shooting down your bore.

I never lubricate the inside of the neck with anything, dry or otherwise, for the purpose of seating bullets. The case mouth, however, should be cleanly chamfered on the inside to allow the bullet to start into the neck without scratching the bullet jacket.

I've never found mica to provide any appreciable lubrication in reloading applications. You might as well dust your cases with talcum powder.

Here is an interesting article.

How to win at 1000 yards

I wonder why a scratch or two on a bullet would make much diffeence considering that it will have a lot more scratches once it goes down the barrel of the gun.

One of the reasons I went to using stainless steel media was because it removes all lube from the case necks to say nothing of getting all the carbon out of the case, primer pockets, etc.

For those users of RCBS dies, you can get carbide expander balls that reduce the need for neck lube while resizing.

Rusty, I read that same article. I've loaded a lot for many years and everything you read says NO lube in the case. This was the first time I ever read of anyone intentionally putting lube in the case. His reasoning is sound and it works for him, very well obviously.
I am still of the belief for the average reloaded, no lube in the case is the smart play.

TK,
That's the first I've read about lubing the necks. You are right. It works for him. He also loads each round into the chamber by hand. that's a bit impractical for a hunting rifle? For the average hunter it doesn't seem worth it?

Well, If you only need one shot?????

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Ingwe's thread was about using the Lee Collet Neck Sizer

NO lube inside the neck needed on that die

No lube needed on a bushing die unless you are leaving the expander in

Lube needed inside the neck with expander ball type dies which I will not use.....oops only on one the 375 Ruger which I haven't got around to custom ordering a Lee Collet for yet

with expander ball type dies which I will not use. What is bad about the expander ball. I think all my Dillon rifle dies have an expander ball.

Expander dies need lube in the neck and produce the most runout of any type when you jerk the expander back through the neck. They also work the neck twice during each sizing, once to size down and once to expand back up.

Lee Collet dies and bushing dies do not need lube in the neck and only size once inward. The Lee Collet has a floating mandrel that does not destroy the alignment of the case body and neck that was produced by the chamber in your rifle.

Bushing dies are easy to get different bushing sizes to regulate the ID of your neck for exact bullet grip

Bringing this back up for a bit.

I know this is one of those topics in reloading that has been batted all over the park though.

I had never used the bushing type dies and recently purchased the Redding S bushing dies for my very accurate 223 . As well as some neck turning set ups too , which is a whole different subject.

I sent Redding a email to enquire about using the carbide insert in the S full length die. Interestingly Redding tech responded that they see the best results with the S dies with the regular steel expander left in the die . They did of course say I could use the carbide expander too if I preferred. Well of course if they believe it works better , I am going to try their way first.

I haven't got around to using the S dies yet. And I hate to do the necks but I am just to see if I can wring a 1/4 inch or so more out of me and the rifle.

I just thought I would add it to the thread for comment. In the 223 I would think I would use the Imperial Dry neck lube in conjunction with the S bushing die with the expander left in.

I sure enjoyed Rusty's link above too. Thanks .

Thanks for all the help and ideas from Woods, Rusty, and from all the guys here.

Personally...I am a big fan of Lee's Case Lube paste. I have used it for my entire reloading career. Tried other stuff but always go back...If I could not get it...I would use Imperial Sizing Wax as second choice. I ALWAYS lightly lube the the inside neck with a bore mop saturated with Lee Case Lube. Richard Lee has always advocated this step.

There is no reason to lube the neck to seat bullets. I lube the neck, after cleaning it with a brush, when I size and deprime brass. Then I clean it using my tumbler and walnut media which removes the lube before I prime, powder and seat the bullets.

You don't want to contaminate your powder with a lubricant. It may not make a difference but it just might.

I can see that testing cartridges with and without inside neck lube while seating could be interesting. I just might do that.Some of the characteristics that come to mind to look for : soot on cases, primer appearance, velocity spread, repeatability and whatever you might suggest. roger

I think which ever way that you prefer is what works best . . . to a point .

From HenryP on How to Win at 1000 yards from Rustys link

Q: You believe consistent neck tension (i.e. grip on the bullet) is really important. What methods are you using to ensure consistent bullet release?

Henry: I apply Imperial dry neck lube to the inside of my case-necks with a bore mop. The K&M arbor with seating force gauge shows the need to do this. If you put a bullet into a clean case, it will be jerky when seating the bullet. You may see 40 units (on the K&M dial) dropping to 20, then slowly increasing pressure. I explained to a friend that not lubing the neck is like overhauling an engine without lubing the cylinders. Smooth entry gives the bullets a smooth release.

I am not sure I will do that for regular loads but for my extra work extra prep brass for this 223 I will probably give it a try.

Probably the most unusual part of the S die was having Redding recommend the use of the expander and the standard steel one at that. It needs some lubing to try to stay straight LOL. Redding also has a retainer in the die set to remove and not use the expander too BTW.

IIRC, the first Speer Reloading Manual I used many years ago specifically mentioned using their case lube in the necks prior to powder charging and bullet seating. If memory serves, the instructions were to roll the case neck brush across the lube pad; enough lube would be picked up on the brush to lube the necks of six to eight rounds.

Well, I did that... for several years. Then I had occasion to break down some .270 loads I had done that to, and I was amazed at the green color of the bullet portions that were below the case mouth.

It appears to me that the RCBS Case Lube II that they used years ago was water based, and as such, it set up oxidation. Or maybe an anode based on the difference between gilding metal and brass case. Regardless, I don't do that any more, and I see no difference in group sizes...

Imperial sells both wax lube and graphite lube. One for the inside and one for the outside. I find I don't need to lube inside case necks.

The neck should be clean and dry when you are seating bullets HOWEVER, when I am resizing cases, I always use a bit of lube in the neck. It eases the resizing ball into the case and reduced any stretch that might come from the friction of pull the ball back through the neck. My method is pretty straight forward. I use a stamp pad to lube my cases and as I pick up each case, I tip it up and press the neck into the pad. Like I'm trying to cut out a little doughnut. This puts a trace of lube around the inside lip of the case. When I'm done, I toss them in the vibrator for a while and the lube, inside and outside, goes away. I've been doing it this way for about as long as I have had a vibrator and have never had any problems.

Leopardtrack, Thanks for starting a very interesting discussion. I have never used lube in the neck for bullet seating... only resizing.

But, based upon some of the posts here from experienced reloaders, I may just try it sometime. I have some very accurate loads for my rifles, and it would be interesting to see what introducing neck lube to bullet seating would do to the accuracy.

That said, I believe that repeatability and consistency with your process is paramount to good reloaded ammo. If you work up a load using lube in the neck for seating, and it works for that load, I expect that accuracy would be adversely affected if you stopped using lube.

What I liked best about this thread, is that a newbie has asked a question that initially seemed very simple, and yet,....

Rock on!!

Before you start greasing your bullets, try this. seat one bullet using lube and then put the bullet against the door jamb and push on it. if it moves, then your bullets are gonna shift during loading and/or recoil. And, because of the very light bullet pull, your case may not have time to seal against the chamber walls.

Let me be clear...I lube the neck of my cases before FL resizing and NOT before seating bullets. However...I do NOT clean the lube out before seating the bullet and there is still a film of Lee Case Lube present in the neck at the time of seating.

OK! 10ea. 7x41s were loaded with 150 grain bullets with the neck IDs lubed just after powder was dispensed .
Identical loading was done with 10 unlubed necks.
FYI the bullets seated much easier with the lubed necks.
We'll be making a trip to the range in a week or so and I'll fill you in with the performance . I hope everyone had an enjoyable Christmas. roger

Lubricating the inside of the neck may avoid damaging some bullets when seating.

When fired I think most necks start expanding before the bullet ever moves. The neck expands from the bottom toward the case mouth releasing the bullet.

“After reading Ingwe623's post on inadequate neck tension I wonder if it could be caused by neck lube.

Do you use it or not?”

Leapordtrack, I can not help you, neck tension is an invention of the Internet, I can not use neck tension because I can not measure tension as in skid, pounds, deflection, etc.. I do have a strain gage, problem, it is calibrated to thousandths and converted to pounds of effort, and it can also be used to measure torque when weight and distance are factors.

I use bullet hold, I noticed variations of the term that sounded awkward like ‘bullet grip’, I tried bullet grip in a sentence, “I have 35 pounds of bullet grip etc..” and that sounded something like I would expect to read from the Aberdeen Provoking grounds.

Bullet hold: I want all the bullet hold I can get, I am not the fan of seating the bullet to the lands. I want my bullet to have a running start. I do not want my bullet setting at the lands wondering if it has enough jump to get started. I do not want the bullet moving after I load it and or before I fire it.

I am slao the fan of transfers and standards, I transfer the dimentions of the chamber to the sizing die and the seating die, I can not transfer a measurement with a transfer if the neck is lubed, again, I am the fan of bullet hold. Before the Internet there ware reloading manuals that discouraged crimping because there was a big chance crimping done wrong could decrease bullet hold.

F. Guffey

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:


When fired I think most necks start expanding before the bullet ever moves. The neck expands from the bottom toward the case mouth releasing the bullet.

That may be but the same pressure that is pressing on the walls of the case are also pressing on the bottom of the bullet. Think for a moment about the stretch cracks that occur just forward of the web. I will grant that the case seals from the rear forward but for the stretches to occur, the rest of the case must be moving forward.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

Washbeeman. sounds great, but it does not work that way.

Some of the most dysfunctional discussions I have ever read on bench rester forums have happened when the step sequence of events start when the firing pin strikes the primer. I form cases first then fire, Others fire to form, when someone tells me about stretch I have to ask "What Action? I form wildcats that do not stretch. I form some cases that are held to the rear, all the forming happens when the case blows out to form the case body and shoulder, no stretch.

I form Ackley Improved cases by design, the Ackely neck is longer than the parent case neck, when chambered the parent case part of the shoulder is sized when chambered, when fired the rest of the shoulder and case body is formed. Step sequence: When the shoulder and case body is blown out the neck is pulled back, if the neck of the case is locked in the chamber when the shoulder and case body is formed the neck will/can be pulled off.

Stretch and pull apart: Starting with the firing pin hitting the primer, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel, if the case is driven forward when fired (firing pin strikes the primer, then the case, powder and bullet take off for the front of the chamber/shoulder) the case body locks on to the chamber with the case head separated from the bolt face, THEN! when things get serious the pressure pushes the case head to the bolt face, remember, the case body can not slide because it is locked to the chamber. When the case body is locked onto the chamber and the case head is forced back because it is not supported, the case stretches between the case head and case body.

Then it is assumed there is only one chamber design, there are designs that are not effective at holding the case to the rear, there are receivers that allow the case to jump the extractor when reloaders insist on full length sizing a case back to minimum length with no regard for the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face.

Then there is 'scribing the case' at the case body/shoulder juncture, no one does it, meaning they do not know what happens when the trigger is pulled as in, did the case take off to the front of the chamber when the firing pin struck the primer and drove all that weight forward against the chamber shoulder. Did the case lock onto the chamber causing the case to stretch between the case head and case body when fired.

Then there are bench resters that lubed their cases to prevent the case from locking onto the chamber, something like slide and glide forming. Then the argument, it seems the bolt and lugs can not hold up to the hammering when the lugs are forced to take the hammering.

I am always looking for skid marks on cases after firing.

F. Guffey

If you want exactly the same neck tension each time you fire then get a custom neck sizing die without an expander and use an inside reamer to size the inside of the neck. Then polish the inside of the neck with 600 grit emery and OOO steel wool until you get the perfect tension on each case. Seat the bullets with finger pressure alone so you can feel the pressure it takes to seat the bullet.

Then of course as the neck hardens over time you will have to start again with new cases - about ten reloads is all the life of carefully prepared cases will get you.

Or you can accept the small inequities of using a "normal" reloading process and still shoot sub MOA groups in a decent gun with a decent barrel. You probably won't get groups down in the"30s" (.030") but if you need groups that small then you already know what it takes to get there.

"Tuning" cases for ultimate accuracy is a time honored practice for those who are searching for the smallest possible "one hole" group. I gave up on that a long time ago. I am a hunter not a benchrest shooter. My ammo is great when it is consistently shooting sub MOA five shot groups.

It all depends on what you want.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
OK! 10ea. 7x41s were loaded with 150 grain bullets with the neck IDs lubed just after powder was dispensed .
Identical loading was done with 10 unlubed necks.
FYI the bullets seated much easier with the lubed necks.
We'll be making a trip to the range in a week or so and I'll fill you in with the performance . I hope everyone had an enjoyable Christmas. roger

I look forward to your report.

Tomorrow is range day! Just putting this on top. roger

We are waiting and keeping it on top.

From a purely accuracy standpoint consistency IS the deal. Some long range shooters do, in fact, use a dry lube inside the neck when seating bullets. IDK how much difference it make but they are looking for the most consistant release.............


.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Tomorrow is range day! Just putting this on top. roger

Are you back from the range yet?