Gents,
I read a "fact" or advertising from "Innovative Technologies".They make the statement that resizing belted brass is difficult = not possible with convential resizing dies .The brass develops a "bulge" around the case (after 2 or 3 firings).In short they provide the solution for $89.95 c a special collet die,enabling resizing 20 times.I am getting set up for a new rifle in 416 Rem Mag which uses belted brass-I think.
Would anyone please share their experience and knowledge of the subject?
I dont understand why a convential Reddings or RCBS resizing die would leave a bulge above the belt.Is this true or clever?
thanks
sheephunter

Save your money.

Brass is pretty much brass and it all reloads the same.

I reload for at least six different belted cartridges, including the 416. Some individual cases have been resized ten or more times and I never have seen any bulges in the case.

Look at it this way, neither Redding nor RCBS make or sell any special dies such as those you describe. If there was a need, I'm sure they would.

Good luck, you'll enjoy your 416, it's a great and easy to load cartridge.

Joe.

sheep hunter, thanks for asking that question. i was wondering also. i reload for 4 belted cartridges and i have yet to see this "bulge". i did see a lot of bulges when i set my necking die to low and ruined a whole bunch of virgin brass
enjoy your new elephant gun. i hear they are pesky critters!
woofer

Sheephunter,
Like JMAC said....this is just a non-existent problem cooked up as a marketing ploy.
I load several belted magnums and have never had ANY problems. I load the .416 Taylor which is nothing more than a short .416 Remington.
One important thing, though. After shooting your brass for the first time (as long as it is going to be used in the same rifle), you can back your sizing die off a few thousanths so that you are not moving the shoulder. The shoulder is small on the .416 Rem (and The Taylor too) and full length resizing is usually not necessary. This can help with very long brass service life. I have some test .416 Taylor brass that has been shot 20 times and they still work fine.
Have fun with your new project.
The Bearman
In Montana Territory

Haven't loaded for .416's yet, but have loaded for 300 mag, 338 mag, and 375 H&H ... never saw the problem mentioned by Innovative Technologies.

Makes me wonder if they're "Innovative Advertising."

There was a thread on this subject here on AR a few months ago. The marketer of the die was rather seriously pummeled by most of the posters.

Bottom line: Unless a chamber is SERIOUSLY oversized in the head area, then the solution offered is to a non-existant problem. The same problem would exist with an oversized chamber in a rimless, rimmed, rebated, or semi-rimmed case.

I load for 5 belted cases (and have loaded for several others in the past) and have never had need of any such device.

Thank you all for your notes,
as I indicated,I cant understand why a regular resizing die would cause a bulge above the rim.This would mean that the die's dimension are toatally off etc.I have found for many years that a good way of selling something is creating insecurity,some people call that good american salesmanship .Just in case - take another vitamin

sheephunter

Now you are hitting on a sore spot of mine Stonecreek .While I ,like the rest of us ,deplore acts of terrorism I can clearly see how the newsmedia and governmental agencies butcher it out.The more security "we need" ,the higher the "danger level" the more we are supposed to support our government that protects us.Pretty soon our friendly government will have us behind "save bars", our way of life will be gone but they will be very important and totally in charge.The more we fear,the more we wont /cant object to all these nonsensical intrusions and regulations.And none of them will or do thwart a terror attack- salesmanship
sheephunter

That would depend on your chamber, my chamber does not cause a buldge if it did I get a new barrel....

I see the validity of the therory, but doubt its practical application, particularly in a big bore..

I always use new unfired brass to hunt with in my big bores and doubt that I have ever loaded a 416 case 20 times least I'd be a bit punchy by now.

I doubt that I have ever loaded or needed to load any case 20 times, not even a 222, I'd toss them when the first one split at about 10, and buy some more for $22.00 per hundred.....

But I don't practice a lot with my big bores, I sight them in from time to time and fire about 10 shots off hand and thats is about it other than testing a few loads ever so often...

Ray Atkinson,
I know its hard to believe, but these cases have been loaded at least 20 times. I have 10 cases that I use for load development. I like to play with different powder/bullet combinations. Also, I machined out my own one standing express sight and filed it to sight it in. I tested some loads while I was filing the sight too.
As I mentioned in a previous post, the .416 Taylor that I have is a long neck version. All chamber dimensions are the same except that the neck is .100" longer, making the brass length 2.600". I fire form the cases out of .300 Win Mag. I remove the die decapping pin, set a shoulder on the .300 Win case that causes the bolt to close firmly and fire form. For fire forming I use 17.0 gr of Unique, fill with corn meal or cream of wheat and add a plug of tissue paper in the .30cal end of the brass. They fire form perfectly every time. I have fire formed over 100 cases and havn't lost a one.
I probably play with this stuff more than most, but its a fun hobby for me.
I have thought of going to Africa for a hunt. However, the only animal that I ever really wanted to hunt is a Cape Buffalo. I have shot all sorts of game here in Montana (except Moose) and many of the plains species in Africa seem like more of the same.
Anyway, I always like your posts and read them all.
Great Shooting,
The Bearman in Big Sky Country

p.s. I have fired more than 200 rounds through my Taylor over the last several months. Yes, after about 20 rounds it gets quite tiring. Fifteen rounds seems about max for me in any given session. I also have a CZ550 Mag in .416 Rigby that I have fired several hundred times. Laugh if you like, but I am not as recoil sensitive as some.
The Bearman

[ 02-14-2003, 17:49: Message edited by: bearmanmt ]

I measured my fired cases with a Stoney comparator then resized them in a Hornady sizer with the die set down hard against the shell holder and all the slop taken out of the Rockchuckers linkage. (I know, big argument on how to set up the sizer die) The difference was 0.012" longer in the fired case. I will buy a set of Redding Competition shell holders so I can get the difference reduced by at least 0.010" and still have the slop taken out of the linkage. This is nit-picking and for the size of the groups or animals won't make any difference at all, but it will make more uniform ammo.

I've ran tests on several sets of dies and several calibers just to see if there is a difference between just unscrewing the seater and setting hard against the ram and there is always a measurable difference. I reload the Taylor rounds with the same procedures I use with my bug hole varminters, i.e., weighed cases, turned necks, flash holes deburred and squared, trimmed to length,and polished, etc. It doesn't take much time and I know that the ammo is as good as I can produce, has been inspected at least 5 times and no baddies get through and looks pretty too.

Gentlemen,

I think this problem seem to be more prevalent with some European made rifles.

I have seen it happen with several of them. And it gets worse if all one does is screw the die down until it touches the shell holder.

The reason for it is what Ray has mentioned - a chamber which has been cut on the generous side.

We reload for many belted cartridges - mainly for rifles we have built ourselves.

We cut our chambers to minimum dimentions and we have no problems reloading some cases well into 2 figures.

Sheephunter: It doesn't sound like you've been a good American and gone down to buy your duct tape and plastic sheeting at WalMart. What's the matter, doesn't it make you feel safer that an 80 year-old woman can't take her plastic knitting needles on the airplane?

I used to have a bulge above the belt until I started walking 2-3 miles a day and watching what I eat.

Bulge above the belt? Maybe on a really sloppily chambered rifle.

Buy a Stoney point cartridge headspace gauge and use it in conjunction with a good dial caliper. You get a holder that clamps to the dial caliper jaw and the gauge fits into that holder. The gauges themselves are clearly marked for the specific group of cartridges for which they are used. One of the best tools I ever bought. Whole thing will cost under $10 with one gauge and it will give accurate readings within about a half a thousandth � depending on the quality of your caliper. I�ve been using a Sears Craftsman dial caliper purchased twenty years ago and it�s still going strong.

Take a sample of your once fired cases and use the headspace gauge to measure the case length from the base to the the datum line on the shoulder. That will be darn close to the actual headspace measurement of your chamber. Then adjust your FL die to bump the case shoulder back no more than .001 or .002� and lock it down. The technique is more thoroughly explained in the instructions that come with the gauge.

Belted, unbelted � it makes no difference. You will now headspace off of the shoulder and your belted cases will last just as long as any unbelted case.

"Innovative" has not done well on other forums either. Their product is a solution to a non problem. Belted cases do have a built in headspace problem and suffer shorter case life but regular sizing dies take care of bringing the case body back to a satisfactory dimension.

Their product would also work the web more and that's the weak link.

Check the web of all fired cases with a feeler gage made from a wire. If you feel a ring inside then discard the case if it's severe. You can't see them on the outside in time. Not only are belted cases subject to this failure but all brass is and those fired in guns with rear lockups are particularly bad.

Jim in Idaho
QUOTE:
I used to have a bulge above the belt until I started walking 2-3 miles a day and watching what I eat.



have you tried "Dreamaway"?

Stonecreek ,
yes you are 100% correct,I am a known troublemaker.Last time I returned from the Yukon,a very important person at the airport took all my duct tape that I carried,told me its a deadly weapon.Didn't dare to touch the stuff since.

sheephunter

I've got a Winchester 70 in .416 Rem mag that I resize with a Lee full length die. After 5 resizings I still haven't needed that "Innovative Technologies" gadget. I kinda thought it was bunk the first time I saw the ad. But that's what marketing is all about: creating a perceived need. IMO whoever bought one got himself a collector's item right away. I don't think they'll sell many.

How does that saying go? You can fool some of the people some of the time...