I posted this in the gun cleaning area but not too many people visit it. So.....
just finished talking to my local hot shot gunsmith. He says not to use Sweet's as it will surface harden your barrel and promote fire-cracking. Has anyone any info about this? He says Wipe Out is a better choice......

R

That's the first I've heard of that. Methinks your gunsmith is full of it. The only precaution you need to do with Sweet's is make very sure you've cleaned very bit of it from your barrel. 've used it for years and my barrels are just fine.
Paul B.

i heard some time back about somebody blaming sweets for ruining a barrel. the thought was that the ammonia sat in the thing overnight and ate into the steel. but the ammonia evaporates pretty fast, doubt that that happened

I've heard Sweet's will cause rust but it is supposed to be cleaned out of the barrel after use with a nother cleaner. I use it for 7.62x54R.

I've used sweets forever, more than 20 years. I've never heard of it either. It's common knowledge that you have to remove all traces of sweets out of the barrel before you're finished with the cleaning session.

As I posted on the Gun Cleaning board,

I have used a fair amount of Sweets over the years.

It has been determened not to use Sweets with Shooters Choice.

Also it is well known not to leave Sweets in the barrel longer than 15 minutes.

Plus you must "flush" Sweets out of the bbl when done cleaning. I use this same rule with any copper removing chemical.

I have not heard about the fire cracking of the barrel.

However you do not want to get Sweets on your brass. So be sure and get all of it out of the chamber, as well ad the barrel.

Many 1000 yard bench rest shooters use Sweets and Break Free to clean their bbls.

What happens with the Sweet's/Shooter's Choice combination?

Too much Sweets an you get cavities.

quote:

Too much Sweets an you get cavities.

Good one!

Does anyone know what chemicals are in 'Sweets'? The only way to harden steel is to impregnate it with it with a hardening agent (carbon, carbide, nitride etc) and to heat it. The heat is certainly there. Maybe, residues of whatever is in 'Sweets' and carbon fouling and a bit of nitrate 'stuff' could do something to the surface of the steel during firing? I would not dismiss the idea without checking it out - not that is seems to be a problem when used as directed.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I posted this in the gun cleaning area but not too many people visit it. So.....
just finished talking to my local hot shot gunsmith. He says not to use Sweet's as it will surface harden your barrel and promote fire-cracking. Has anyone any info about this? He says Wipe Out is a better choice......

R

Opinions are like elbows...everyone has at least two....or something like that.

One of my opinions is that your gunsmith needs to go back to "expert" school. I've used Sweets in competition rifle barrels for years, both benchrest and high-power (full-bore to you Commonwealth shooters). Almost all my fellow competitors in full-bore used it too. Never seemed to hurt our barrels, but then we probably only fired a few (7-12) thousand rounds per year apiece, and some of us have only been using it 30 years and counting.

And, of course, like a bunch of non-expert dummies, we did follow the instructions which were listed above...

-Not in the barrel more than 15 minutes.
-Rinse it out with a neutral solvent.
-Don't use it in combination with Shooter's Choice (or any other "potent" cleaner, before using the neutral solvent rinse & drying patches.

N.B. it is apparently neither the Sweet's nor the Shooter's Choice which causes the etching which they produce when used either together or immediately sequentially. It is apparently some other chemical formed by the interaction of the two with each other.


P.S.Please do not take this as any criticism of you. You did the smart thing, and asked the question where long term users of the product might answer you before you made up your mind. Too bad the gunsmith in question apparently did not.

The 'cracking' and 'erosion' of a barrel is due to the absorption of carbon from the powder.You are actually carburizing the barrel with carbon from the hot gases.That in turn cracks the barrel.To minimize that don't overheat the barrel by rapid fire !It's doubtfull that anything in a cleaner would contribute to this.

I used Sweets for years on carbon steel barrels but have avoided using it in stainless steel barrels due ammonia reaction with the nickel content in stainless. I disagree with your gunsmith.

FWIW, I am currently using the Hoppes Elite and having very good results.

Oooops,

I've been using Sweets and Shooters Choice for quite a few years and my rifle still shoots fine. Although, to be fair I've never scoped the barrel to see if it's damaged. I recently switched over to Wipeout anyway so no more Sweets for me.

I attended a gun cleaning seminar put on by Kenny Jarret, at the SCI Show in Reno 2 or 3 years ago and he was using Shooter's Choice and Sweets for his demonstration. He said to run a couple of dry patches through to dry the bore before running the Sweets through.(I still have the handout he issued confirming this.) Also, you don't want to leave the Sweets in the barrel more than 15 min. And, yes the Sweets will melt your bronze brushes, jags, etc. It all boils down to knowing what you are doing and following instructions. I have been adhereing to his method since hearing Jarret, on both carbon and S/S barrels without ill effect. He also suggested Barnes CR 10 as an alternative to Sweets. I have used the Barnes, but prefer Sweets; the latter seems to more easily saturate into the patch. They both smell terrible though. I do not believe it necessary though to always use a harsh cleaner, such as these, after EVERY shooting session. I think, FWIW, that it depends on the number of shots fired and the corresponding amount of copper buildup.

Buliwyf- Are you using the Hoppes Elite in place of Sweets, or in conjunction with it?

Thanks for the input Gentlemen. Have you been to Varmint Al's website? He's an engineer with a wealth of information on his site. He cleans with Sweet's and finishes with Shooter's Choice. I think if that combination was bad he would know it.

An ammonia atmosphere is sometimes used for heat treating steel. Look it up.

I'm sorry but I don't get your point. Are you saying Sweet's will heat treat the metal and if so is this good?

The presence of ammonia at high temperature and pressure could surface harden the bore a little.
I do not use Sweets because of the potential for pitting the bore. I can get my bores clean with Hoppe's. If I did use Sweet's i would follow it by dry patches and something with oil in it to remove the completely remove the ammonia.

Thank you. Hear that everybody? Sweet's WILL surface harden your bore. Anybody else with confirmation of that? A reply from a chemist or someone with a metallurgy backgroud would be great!

quote:

It is apparently some other chemical formed by the interaction of the two with each other.

Two strong acids mixed together makes a very powerful acid! That might be the reason. If ammonia can cause surface hardening of steel then ammonia and carbon plus nitrates could be the problem the gunsmith had in mind. Like I said before - I would not dismiss the idea without checking it out. However, if Sweets is such a good cleaner then I would have thought it would reduce the hardening by removing carbon and other possible hardening agents? The fact that prolific shooters have found no adverse effects would indicate that at worst it was misuse that did the damage.

quote:

... heated in a special container through which ammonia gas is allowed to pass. The ammonia splits into hydrogen and nitrogen and the nitrogen reacts with the steel penetrating the surface to form nitrides.

Well, here it is.

Sure, but there is ammonia, and ammonia.

Just how is it used at what strength, temp. or pressure.

I can hold my finger under a tap, but I don't know about standing up to a fire hose. Could do me some damage.

There was quite a controversy over ammonia used for cleaning rifle barrels years ago that was carried on in the pages of Precision Shooting. eventually the main proponent of using ammonia had to change his mind after borrowing a bore scope and actually looking at barrels. Sweet's says they use 5% ammonia. I had thought no one was using ammonia anymore. Lately I met a guy at the range who was using a Barnes product to clean copper in his barrels. It had a very strong smell of ammonia. Personally, I don't care to take the chance as none of my match rifles strip that much copper anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Sure, but there is ammonia, and ammonia.

Just how is it used at what strength, temp. or pressure.

I can hold my finger under a tap, but I don't know about standing up to a fire hose. Could do me some damage.

How about 3000°F and 55,000 PSI?
That is far more heat and pressure than is used for heat treating steel.

Sweets neutralizes corrosive salts from primmers. Hoppes and most oil based cleaners don't. I haven't used Sweet's on anything other than Nagants and my SVT-40.

I think JAL is quite correct. There is not supposed to be any ammonia left in the bore! (Nor carbon or nitrate compounds). Used as directed, should not cause any problem. What interests me is whether of not there is any possibility for Sweets to contribute to bore hardening. Who knows of a metallurgist?

quote:

Originally posted by elathe:
How about 3000°F and 55,000 PSI?
That is far more heat and pressure than is used for heat treating steel.

OK, I should have put "time" in there too. Both the time a barrel gets that heat, and whether the ammonia is wiped out in "time", and whether the stuff had evorated anyway.
Jeez I hate sticking up for Sweets. I've heard the weirdest things, darkening a SS barrel. . . Well not mine it didn't.

Heck, there's been so many barrels rooned by sweets, and yet no one has sued them???
Perhaps there is an official name for Sweets phopia?

When "Shooters Choice" came out Hart used this with Sweets and etched a crome molly barrel in a very short time . Al Mirdoch told me that story - I called Shooters the next day and told them to call Hart. The next bottles had the warning on them.

I have used Robla Solo a LOT which is a German ammonia based cleaner . The instructions do say to fill the barrel completely . I used this for two years with no problems until one warm night. I came in from shooting and ran a few wet patches of Robla Solo to clean my .25/06 Ruger Douglas barrel while I made dinner.This took longer than usual and I returned to cleaning in thirty five minutes. The cleaning solution was now dry -never before ? and I had to apply more to disolve that and finish cleaning that barrel .

The first day shooting that Ruger M77 HB groups were .3 at 100 yards - velocity was 3695 fps + or - 5 f.ps.
The next day after that one cleaning the same batch of ammunition was 3570 + or - 120 f.p.s. and all verticle at 200 yards -group 4" x .4 " for 5 rounds.

I cleaned the barrel with Shooters and used Wally Sieberts pocket borescope to look at the throat area.
There was several really deep pits in the throat and at 300 rounds the barrel was finished -scrap.

Take a look in "Hatchers Notebook" for interesting observations on ammonia solution rifle barrel cleaning.

Harry Pope came up with the idea I believe after squirting ammonia solution at dogs while riding his bike to the shooting range. A bronze water pistol was used.



Now I use other cleaners in my barrels -just as fast but much safer.
And my first round after cleaning goes in the center of the group....

Stonewall

Yes, "strong ammonia"...which used to be a common technical term meaning a solution of about 30% or more of ammonia is covered very well In Hatcher's notebook. BUT, please notice it does not mention hardening and cracking of the bore in detAIL at all. That was not the problem Hatcher's covers.

Ammonia has a very strong afinity for water vapour. Leaving the dry product of evaporated liquid ammonia in a chemically cleaned bore causes almost instant RUST (oxidation), as Hatcher pointed out.


So, cleaning with strong ammonia ("ammonia dope" as the older shooters called it in the '1920s) was done by putting a rubber tube over the end of the rifle barrel and a plug in the chamber end of the barrel, then filling the barrel and tube completely full of ammonia. No drying of the ammonia solution, no attaction of water vapour to a chemically clean (and unprotected) area, no rust.


One can find anything they want to find on the internet. You can read that the earth is flat, that Obama is the anti-christ (or that McCain is), or that the solution to all the world's financial problems is to return to precious metal currency. You can therefore, too, read that Sweet's causes chancres, pancreatitis, PMS, and abnormal tide falls.

The plain fact is that anything misused badly enough may harm the things it is used on. That IS true about Sweet's. The answer is not to condemn the product but to either use it correctly or not use it at all. Simple choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Yes, "strong ammonia"...which used to be a common technical term meaning a solution of about 30% or more of ammonia is covered very well In Hatcher's notebook. BUT, please notice it does not mention hardening and cracking of the bore in detAIL at all. That was not the problem Hatcher's covers.

Ammonia has a very strong afinity for water vapour. Leaving the dry product of evaporated liquid ammonia in a chemically cleaned bore causes almost instant RUST (oxidation), as Hatcher pointed out.


So, cleaning with strong ammonia ("ammonia dope" as the older shooters called it in the '1920s) was done by putting a rubber tube over the end of the rifle barrel and a plug in the chamber end of the barrel, then filling the barrel and tube completely full of ammonia. No drying of the ammonia solution, no attaction of water vapour to a chemically clean (and unprotected) area, no rust.


One can find anything they want to find on the internet. You can read that the earth is flat, that Obama is the anti-christ (or that McCain is), or that the solution to all the world's financial problems is to return to precious metal currency. You can therefore, too, read that Sweet's causes chancres, pancreatitis, PMS, and abnormal tide falls.

The plain fact is that anything misused badly enough may harm the things it is used on. That IS true about Sweet's. The answer is not to condemn the product but to either use it correctly or not use it at all. Simple choice.

Very good post.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
I think JAL is quite correct. There is not supposed to be any ammonia left in the bore! (Nor carbon or nitrate compounds). Used as directed, should not cause any problem. What interests me is whether of not there is any possibility for Sweets to contribute to bore hardening. Who knows of a metallurgist?

Ask a metallurgist about the benefits of cryogenic treating a barrel sometime. I did.
A lot shooters want to believe in magic, but there isn't any.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

quote:

Originally posted by elathe:
How about 3000°F and 55,000 PSI?
That is far more heat and pressure than is used for heat treating steel.

OK, I should have put "time" in there too. Both the time a barrel gets that heat, and whether the ammonia is wiped out in "time", and whether the stuff had evorated anyway.
Jeez I hate sticking up for Sweets. I've heard the weirdest things, darkening a SS barrel. . . Well not mine it didn't.

Heck, there's been so many barrels rooned by sweets, and yet no one has sued them???
Perhaps there is an official name for Sweets phopia?

It is not Sweet's per se it is the ammonia.
If you like ammonia you can mix it yourself much cheaper than Sweets. It is used in very large amounts by Milsurp shooters to neutralize corrosive ammo residues. but the Milsurp shooters also know they have to dry it out and follow it with a rust preventive.

It is beginning to sound like it is the after effects of the ammonia that is causing corrosion damage and not hardening at all. I wouldn't use an ammonia containing cleaner to wash my car for that same reason. It causes rust! So it still boils down to 'misuse' of a product. No different to overloading a cartridge.

It is true that high temperatures and pressures occur in a rifle barrel on firing a cartridge but the time duration is very short and the steel itself does not reach anywhere near the temperatures required for 'heat treatment' (I think).