Hi all,

I don't shoot regularly (nor as much as I would like to) and haven't posted here in forever, but I need some help....

I have been reloading for my .308 for about a year now and have had some descent groups at 100m (here are three of my best 5-shot groups: 1, 2, 3). So today, I finally got the opportunity to shoot at further than 100m. I shot at 300 yards, to be exact. I had four, 8.5 x 11 targets, so I guess the entire target area was 17 x 22. Out of 20 rounds using recipes from previously successful 100m trips and I put 13 rounds in that target area. I was not dissappointed so much as perplexed. The wind was not that bad and was blowing from my 7:00 to my 1:00 and I was using SMK HPBT 168gr, Varget powder with the rounds .020 off the lands (again, the recipe I used was an exact reproduction of some of the ones that produced the groups similar to the ones I have indicated). So, where in the world do I start??

Thanks a bunch. I know that there are some really experienced folks here and maybe if I hang out more often, I won't be making a mess of things like I did today.

Was there a big difference in temperature? And did you make sure that you were still on at 100?

quote:

Originally posted by KevinP:
...So, where in the world do I start??

Thanks a bunch. I know that there are some really experienced folks here and maybe if I hang out more often, I won't be making a mess of things like I did today.

Hey Kevin, Looks like some right nice groups to me.

Did you link to the "wrong Targets"? If those are shot at 300yds, then you are doing just fine.

Generally there are several things that can open a really nice 100-yard group up to a 27" group at 300-yards.

First is that the bullet is not stabilizing. At 100-yards it may be doing fine, but the longer it flies, the worse things get. And it isn't proportional...

Second is that the wind may have been mild at your shooting position, but what was it doing all along the 300 yards to the target? You should place a few "wind flags" between you and the paper. These can be made easily enough...a welding rod and some strips of red plastic ribbon.

Third is mirage. Funny what light can do to a group...

If you are not at a maximum load for your firearm, work it up a little more. Making sure that things don't fall apart at the 100-yard mark.

Then move to 200-yards and see what happens.

Then 300...

Take your time, I have seen days up here where there was no wind at all at the shooting position, yet there were gusts of 45 MPH between the muzzle and the 500-yard antelope.

And most important, practice.

Sorry friend.....I don't see the 300 yard targets.....assuming the 1 2 and 3 are at 100.

Regardless if I had a gun that shot like that at 100 I'd be a happy camper. After that if it don't shoot well at 300 there's nothing wrong with the gun.

Do what Steve said. Wind can be tricky.

Plus, does you scope have an adjustable parellex. Non parallex adjustable scopes can cause that exact problem.

I apologize for the minor confusion. The three targets I linked to were all 100 meters (military range on Fort Hood). The temperature difference was not huge. The temp those 100m groups were shot in was around 60 and the temp Saturday was 70-ish (not more than 75). I love the hobby, but it gets sorta overwhelming with ALL the stuff you have to pay attention to. I guess it's not enough that you have to pay attention to the load data, but weather also. I guess I can sorta go back to the drawing board and start to record weather conditions with my load data. Oh, and I suppose it would be a good time to purchase a chrono. Seems like I may need one.

Thanks for the awesome feedback. It's tough starting a demanding hobby as a 38-year old, somewhat obsessive, soldier, but I do enjoy it enough to invest the time needed.

Kevin

quote:

Originally posted by ricciardelli:
Generally there are several things that can open a really nice 100-yard group up to a 27" group at 300-yards.

First is that the bullet is not stabilizing. At 100-yards it may be doing fine, but the longer it flies, the worse things get. And it isn't proportional...

Second is that the wind may have been mild at your shooting position, but what was it doing all along the 300 yards to the target? You should place a few "wind flags" between you and the paper. These can be made easily enough...a welding rod and some strips of red plastic ribbon.

Third is mirage. Funny what light can do to a group...

If you are not at a maximum load for your firearm, work it up a little more. Making sure that things don't fall apart at the 100-yard mark.

Then move to 200-yards and see what happens.

Then 300...

Take your time, I have seen days up here where there was no wind at all at the shooting position, yet there were gusts of 45 MPH between the muzzle and the 500-yard antelope.

And most important, practice.

I agree with Steve. PRACTICE.
That means practice hunting. Getting close.
Where anything over 100 yards isn't important, because you ain't there. You're at 50 yards.
Can you say HUNT

I assume you are shooting from a bench. Things that can go wrong have been mentioned, wind is a group killer once you get to 300yds & beyond. I won't even bother shooting groups past 100 if the wind is over 10mhp @ 90deg. Your scope can also be giving you problems as the range increases. Paralex, lens quality, mirage, it all works against you as you get passed the 200yd. mark. Practce more from the 200 then 300yd line, it should get better. The goal is groups no bigger than 3x your 100yd groups.

quote:

Originally posted by KevinP:
...So, where in the world do I start??...

Hey Kevin, Apparently the confusion was on "my part". You clearly stated those were 100yd groups in your first post.

I like Varget myself, but with 150gr bullets. And I use H380 with the 165-168gr bullets. But don't let that change your mind cause Varget might be the best Powder in your rifle.

168gr MatchKings are what I use to Benchmark a 30cal rifle, so we are doing the same there.

I fully Prep and Weight Sort my Cases. Plently of folks DO NOT and shoot excellent groups. But it gives me confidence that the "Combustion Chambers" will be as close to identical as I can make them.

BenchRest Primers might not matter either, but I use them for distance shooting.

I prefer a Square Black target and shoot at the corner. Just snug the crosshair up next to it and when the white is gone the Sear should release. Make sure you hang the Targets Plumb so when you bring the scope up to the square, you will know there is no "cant or skew" in the rifle. With Round Dot targets, " I " have too much room for error.

Develop your Load using the never improved upon Creighton Audette Method at 300yds. Once you locate the Harmonic Clusters, re-shoot them to verify you did find the harmonic. Then Fine Tune the Final Load by adjusting the Seating Depth.

Make sure your rifle is unloaded and "Dry Fire" it in a darkened room with your eyes closed. Pull the trigger as s-l-o-w-l-y as you possibly can and see if you can detect any Creep or Drag. If so, either fix the Trigger, or get it to a GunSmith who can. Shooting "consistent" good groups with a Bad Trigger is impossible.

Make sure you have a SOLID Bench position and shoot between heartbeats.

A scope with a higher power allows you to see more movement on-Target. If you are using a smaller power scope, you are handicapping your shooting ability at distance.

I'm reluctant to bring up the Brand of rifle, cause everyone has their own favorite(s). Most will do well with a good properly Developed Load.

Oh yes, for some reason unknown to man, some rifles just don't like specific Bullet Weights. Another rifle made just like the first one might be just the opposite. So, if the 168gr-ers fight you(which I doubt they will), try some 150gr MatchKings with the Varget.

Keep meticulous Records and Targets in a 3-ring Binder so you can walk off to a quiet place and study what they are telling you.

Try to do Load Development at Sunrise when the wind "typically" calms for 20-30 minutes. You may have to make a couple of trips to get in the shooting, but don't hurry. If you try to hurry, mistakes will be made and then you need to re-shoot the entire Test.

And as has been said, get a lot of Trigger Time.

Best of luck to you.

You have received some of the best information possible. The recommendation about the bullet weight and differences at distance has been unpredictable for me. An example is I have one rifle that shoots .5 groups at 100 yards with 150 gr. match bullets and 1.75 groups at 200 hundred yards. This same rifle is exactly reversed with 175 gr. match bullits, it shoots 1.75 groups at 100 yards and .5 groups at 200 yards. I don't have an answere for this phenominon, but a lot of speculation about bullet stability. This is just all to say that there are some unknowns that cannot be measured or predicted which makes the whole reloading and LR shooting fun.

"So, where in the world do I start??"

.............................................
Kevin

I would say you have received some good advice and there are only a few basic remarks I would tend to slightly disagree with that are not worth mentioning really.

Your data log is probably one of the single most important aspects in the pursuit of long range marksmanship and there are many conditions to numerous to mention that become a factor that detailed records could afford you some valuable insights over time.

I would recommend you seek some books on the subject of your interest. One that comes to mind is the "Ultimate Sniper" by Maj. John Plaster, not that your intent is the art of sniping but the book will offer insights into the science of long range marksmanship including reading condition indicators, verifying your zero before each training session, recording data, Etc...

Or you could read tens of thousands of posts over the next few years and learn from trial and error, not to take anything away from anyone who expended their valuable spare time to respond to your basic questions initially.

Another suggestion I would make for reading resources is Paladin Press:

www.paladin-press.com

I hope this info helps!

Augustis ><>

Kevin

BTW, Not bad 100m Groups! However, based off of what I see @ 300 yards you should have printed all 20 rounds on a 8.5 X 11" inch target???

If the "wind was not that bad" and traveling from 7:00 to 1:00 you would have only needed to roughly dope 25% wind value, which way did you print your group or was it scattered?

My last question would be how many rounds did you fire before allowing your tube to cool and how heavy is the tube?

Initially, trigger time and follow through will definitely improve your groups. Shooting after all is a perishable skill that must be maintained on a regular basis...

Augustis ><>

quote:

Originally posted by Slim_Zippy:
You have received some of the best information possible. The recommendation about the bullet weight and differences at distance has been unpredictable for me. An example is I have one rifle that shoots .5 groups at 100 yards with 150 gr. match bullets and 1.75 groups at 200 hundred yards. This same rifle is exactly reversed with 175 gr. match bullits, it shoots 1.75 groups at 100 yards and .5 groups at 200 yards. I don't have an answere for this phenominon, but a lot of speculation about bullet stability. This is just all to say that there are some unknowns that cannot be measured or predicted which makes the whole reloading and LR shooting fun.

Slim, there is something wrong with your scope parallax, or shooting technique. A rifle isn't going to shoot more than 3 times smaller groups at twice the distance period. There is something wrong here it's not the rifle or the load it's your optics or your technique. Bullets don't start converging together at longer distances. A rifle may shoot .5" at 100yds and .70" at 200 which at 200 is a much better group in MOA terms but they don't get 3x smaller if something isn't goofy..............DJ

quote:

Originally posted by Augustis:
Kevin

BTW, Not bad 100m Groups! However, based off of what I see @ 300 yards you should have printed all 20 rounds on a 8.5 X 11" inch target???

If the "wind was not that bad" and traveling from 7:00 to 1:00 you would have only needed to roughly dope 25% wind value, which way did you print your group or was it scattered?

My last question would be how many rounds did you fire before allowing your tube to cool and how heavy is the tube?

Initially, trigger time and follow through will definitely improve your groups. Shooting after all is a perishable skill that must be maintained on a regular basis...

Augustis ><>

Thanks for the compliment. I have a Remington 700VS with the heavy barrel (Remington calls it a "heavy varmint barrel" and I have heard people describe it as a "bull barrel"). I use an extensive scientific method to indicate when the barrel needs to cool down. I use my hand. When the barrel is starting to go from pretty warm to almost hot, I lay off for a few minutes. It has become too hot to touch only once and that was while shooting in direct view of the sun on a 90+ degress Texas day.

I don't have the faintest clue what wind doping is or how to do it. I do know that my shots were all over the place, however.

"Shooting is a perishable skill." I was Active Duty military from '86 to '89. Fired Expert every time I went to the range. 12 years later, I went back in as a Reservist and had to make five trips to the range to barely qualify. That little learning experience led me to purchasing the .308 w/scope and a CZ 452 .22 for open sight practice. The next time I went back, I still wasn't back at the Expert range, but I easily qualified. That was 3 years ago and the first time back on Active Duty I made it to the range, I was 2 off of Expert. It is indeed a perishable skill.

Thanks again for the input.

kevin

i don't mean to sound like a butt head here, but have you had your eyes checked lately?

i was about your age when my eyes went to heck in a handbasket. it seemed to me like it happened overnite. of course i know it didn't. the human body does many strange things to mask our inabilities.

you can google up a lot of info on wind doping a holdover for long range target shooting.

good luck and don't let all the info out there overwhelm you.

My eyes are fine and you don't sound like a butt-head. I have regular eye exams and wear glasses. My eye doc complained the last time I was in because my uncorrected vision is 20/30 and 20/40. He said that that's the range that they try to correct severe cases to and I'm complaining because road signs aren't perfectly sharp. What can I say? I started wearing glasses in my early teens and got used to it.

I have yet to return to the 300y range, but Monday and Tuesday, I went to the range on Fort Hood (limited to 50m because of adjacent range activity). I think I ruled out mechanical problems with the rifle/optics. I shot four, five-round groups (.000, .010, .020 and .030 off lands see target here) ) and one of them is 1.25" and the other three are less than an inch. So, it seems to me that the rifle and optics are okay. I have thought about it a lot since Saturday and I think I helped create my own problems. I had some wind that may have played a bigger part than I think, I had some mirage going on, according to some, I had a light powder load (I admit that I'm not yet at the max in the Sierra manual) and to top it all off, I think I was just not shooting as seriously as I should have. I was really excited to be shooting at that distance for the first time and think that I rushed as a result. Secondly, my targets were 8" yellow dots. I am used to shooting at .5" black dots at 100m, which is just big enough to hide behind the crosshairs. I should have used a 1.5" dot for that, in hindsight.

I have since learned some things. I am working up loads in a less-than-efficient way. I have played with charge and bullet depth simutaneously. I have learned that I need to work up the powder with a consistant seating depth, then get the depth dialed in. Hey, I'm still a relative newbie. Also, I need to shoot more seriously. When I am qualifying with my M16, I'm zoned in and nothing interferes with that. Saturday, I took a recreational approach. While I find shooting to be recreational and relaxing, poor shooting is not at all fulfilling. It's pretty dumb to create stress by half doing stuff. I hope to go back to that range either this Saturday or on the 18th. After that, I hope to bring a completely different story to the board.

Thanks again for all the input!

kevin

thanks for not taking my suggestion the wrong way.

i notice you said you were shooting at 8" dots. there is a poster on this forum that says it all in his signature "aim small, miss small" theres lots of truth in that adage.

have a good one

quote:

Originally posted by STINGER:
i notice you said you were shooting at 8" dots. there is a poster on this forum that says it all in his signature "aim small, miss small" theres lots of truth in that adage.

have a good one

Yep. I had heard that before, but hadn't thought about it in a long time. I honestly feel that contributed to my three-foot shot group (or whatever it was). We have plans to go back to the 300y range on the 18th. I'm going about it differently this time (I have some 1.5" targets to put up at 300). I'll post back here with the results.

Thanks for the help, everyone. Maybe I'll be consistant enough soon to meet some of you folks in a competition?

your 100m groups are great. while wind can have a noticeable effect on accuracy at just about any distance, it seems to me you have enough experience shooting to recognize when that is happening. Go to your ballistics tables in the back of your reloading manual or book two of the hornady manual and study them for a bit. You will probably find that you weren't driving that long bullet fast enough to keep it stable over the longer distance. If it dropped from supersonic to subsonic between 100m and 300m, that could account for your group opening quite a bit. For me, the chronograph let me add more powder comfortably. Good luck.

Kevin

How many grains of powder are you charging in your cases, also are you checking the weight of each charge (If you are using a powder thrower or other method of measure)???

How does your powder charge compare to the reloading manuals listed max charge?

Were the holes in your 300 yard target oblong or round?

Unless your loads are SUPER light I cannot believe you are experiencing velocity burnout at only 300 yards... Now if you are using a powder thrower and not checking the weight of each charge you could be experiencing a velocity differential between the fastest and the slowest
velocity which could defiantly effect the POI because of an extreme spread in velocity which will ultimately effect your longer range accuracy/groups...

Augustis ><>