Was resizing brass for 6mm rem and was seting the dies and noticed something I had not noticed before. My brass was longer after resizing! I was measuring before and after with my stony point stuff that measures off the shoulder.I think I was pulling the shoulder back out as the expander ball was extracted .The cases had been well preped. The only way I could reduce the problem was to risk denting the shoulder by overlubing the neck . I polished the expander first it was no help. I had used these dies several times before . This brass has been fired several times do you suppose it has become work hardened and is too stiff and maby needs annealing ?Have I got this thing cifered out or is something else going on here ?. It ain't workin 100% of time.
Wayles

Are you measuring the "COL" from base to mouth of the case or the "headspace" from base to shoulder datum?
When you resize the brass displaced by the die squeezing the case walls down has to go somewhere. The only place it can travel to is out the top of the die causeing the case to grow. This is normal.
The expander can drag on the neck also, pulling the shoulder foreward and stretching the case. The shoulder can also be forced foreward by the brass flow from resizeing and failure of the die to contact the shoulder enough to hold/move it back in place. If this what is occuring seat the die deeper in the press a 1/8 turn at a time until the should quits flowing or it is set back as far as you feel it should be. Most dies today require the die body contact the shellholder or even cam over when the ram is raised to move the shoulder back in my experiance.

You could try to apply some more lubricant mainly inside the neck, and then, before resizing, roughly wipe the outside of the neck and the shoulder with a cloth to remove any excess of lubricant. It could be a good idea to wipe the shoulder/collet of the sizing die for the same reasons. This way I don't get dented shoulders anymore.

Hello wayles,
Do you have a device known by some as a Mose gauge??
Simply a micrometer measurement of the fired case and tells the shooter/reloader the dimension of the fired case and then can set up his resizing die to come very close to that "number" in order to not work harden the brass anymore than one has to. Have you taken a measurement with your Stony Point system on a NEW unfired case vs a fired one and seen much difference? (I am talking from the datum line on the shoulder of the case, not the OAL.) I am only suggesting that you may well be pushing the shoulder back much more than is necessary to start with ????

Wayles, my solution to the problem is an old bore brush dipped in wd40 or similar lube, use it very sparingly ,you don't want a wet case, I assume your using a normal single stage press so any lube in the case can dry out before you put the powder in.

some will be horrified by this method but i've never had a problem with it.

I trim my cases after resizing so it is no big deal for me.

I expect that resizing would lengthen the cases. The brass has to go somewhere.

Hey wayles

When the full length resizing die starts to resize the case body it will always push the shoulder forward and the case will become harder to chamber. The case will be harder to chamber until you have set the die in far enough to push the shoulder back. The point at which the shoulder just starts to be pushed back and total relief of the crush fit is Partial Full Length Resizing. After the crush fit is gone and you start developing head space, that is Full Length Resizing (as I understand it).

I too use a Stoney Point Head and Shoulders Gauge to push the shoulder back .001" to .0015" but I use the following dies

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=472118
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=409875

sometimes you have to buy the seater with the collet neck sizer but its worth it.

With these dies I can neck size only until the case becomes tight and I have to push the shoulder back. When neck sizing with the collet you do not have to lube the inside of the neck. Runout with the Lee collet was substantially less than with the FL dies cause you are not jerking that expander ball back through.

You may need annealing, but you would still be able to resize correctly with the collet die and body die anyway. I could see where if the neck brass was hard enough that pulling the expander ball back through it might put enough pressure on the shoulder to pull it.

quote:

Originally posted by darwinmauser:
Wayles, my solution to the problem is an old bore brush dipped in wd40 or similar lube, use it very sparingly ,you don't want a wet case, I assume your using a normal single stage press so any lube in the case can dry out before you put the powder in.

some will be horrified by this method but i've never had a problem with it.

I've always used the bore brush dipped in graphite.Works real well.
I could never do WD40. Way too scarey!

Do you have a case trimmer if not you will need one more often when FL sizing vs neck sizing, which sounds like what you have going on your working the brass making it strech so now you have to trim.

I use Dillon spray lube and use a Q-tip on the inside of every 4 or 5 case mouths it will keep the expander ball lubed.

Thanks lots of thought went in to your replys and I thank you for it
Old Joe I was measuring on the shoulder datem line. My rcbs requires about .010 gap between shell holder and die to achive correct head space . I'm only wanting to bump the shoulder back .001 to .002 to allow for hunting condition chambering. The goal is 3.7735 to 3.7745 . Factory is about 3.770 fired measurment is 3.7755 including the 2" for the stony point stuff of course.
Hey Dmouser your wd-40 i'm sure works for you but it scares me to death . My father in law used to spray his old victory model 38 S&W down with wd-40 on a regular basis till he had me take it rabbit huntin once {The bullets hit about 20 yds down range , I could see em in flight ] The wd-40 works tooo good .
Hey Rmiller thanks,I trim my cases too but thats not the measurment I'm wrestlin with this time ,shoulder datum line to rim is the target. Mr. woods sounds like you been doin this stuff a while . Have you had any trouble not having enough neck tension with the Lee stuff ? Used the lee on some .300 wm brass but I felt the bullets seated way too easy for a huntin load. This little 6mm mod 70 feather wieght is my daughters gun and our ultimate goal is always huntin and huntin accuracy . I went to the link you provided to look at the lee stuff ,Thanks . I 'm thinkin forester custom , made to fit a once fired case . I bet long term it would be worth it . Woods Have you ever tried one of the forester's ? Are they worth the money ?
Wayles

quote:

Originally posted by wayles:

My rcbs requires about .010 gap between shell holder and die to achive correct head space

Wayles

Hey wayles

You may be setting the FL die too shallow to push the shoulder back. Quoting from instructions for RCBS FL dies:

quote:

FULL LENGTH OR NECK SIZING
Screw the full length sizer die into the press until the die touches the shell holder when the shell holder is brought up to the top of the press stroke. Be sure all play is removed from the press leverage system. To do at this, adjust the die as above, lower the shell holder and set the die 1/8 to 1/4 turn further down so the press cams over center. Set the large lock nut and you're ready to size.

This is true on most guns unless your gun has an inordinate amount of headspace to begin with. When using the FL dies you have to be real careful about the adjustment at that "1/8 to 1/4 turn further" point cause even a minute adjustment can take you from not touching the shoulder to pushing it back further than you want to.

quote:

Have you had any trouble not having enough neck tension with the Lee stuff ? Used the lee on some .300 wm brass but I felt the bullets seated way too easy for a huntin load.

The Lee Collett does not put as much neck pressure as expander ball type dies, that's why in each caliber I also have one of these cheap dies

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=497361

You can put a light crimp on and do not have to worry about a cannelure to crimp into.

quote:

I 'm thinkin forester custom , made to fit a once fired case . I bet long term it would be worth it . Woods Have you ever tried one of the forester's ? Are they worth the money ?

I don't know, never tried one. It would still be an expander ball type of sizer and I've learned my lesson with them and stay away from them like bars/cheap whisky/Friday nights. Don't look for trouble anymore.

There is only one other type of sizer that does not use an expander ball to my knowledge. That is the Redding Type S Bushing dies

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=678476

Have one for a 30-06 but it yielded .007" runout so I haven't tried another. Some here swear by them. The Lee Collett are much cheaper and I see no reason to switch.

Hey I like the graphite Idea thats all I used to use when neck sizing some of my brass .I had real good luck with it , had forgot all about it . I will just have to be carful and not get the body lube mixed with it .

Mr. woods you are happy with the neck tension from the Lees then? I guess I could crimp but never wanted to add anouther variable and I never liked bullets that wern't smooth , My head says smooth ought to fly with less turbulence

Mr. woods It seemes like any of my dies set according to directions way undersizes my brass for any kind accuracy .Puts it back to approx. unfired factory rounds which don't seem to shoot in any of my guns.
Wayles

quote:

Originally posted by wayles:
Mr. woods you are happy with the neck tension from the Lees then? I guess I could crimp but never wanted to add anouther variable and I never liked bullets that wern't smooth , My head says smooth ought to fly with less turbulence

I never had a problem with bullets moving even before I started using the Lee Factory Crimp Die, so I wouldn't worry about the neck tension with the Lee Collet Neck sizer. The reason I crimp with the LFCD is because I have done side-by-side loaded-at-the-same-time tests with 10 shots crimped and 10 shots uncrimped in all my rifles. In all of them the velocity was increased from 6 fps to 15 fps and the accuracy stayed the same or was increased by 1/8" for the cartridges with the light crimp you can easily apply with the LFCD. The bullet does not have to have any cannelures. I crimp Accubonds, Nosler Partitions, Fail Safes and Scirroccos, all smooth bullets.

quote:

Mr. woods It seemes like any of my dies set according to directions way undersizes my brass for any kind accuracy .Puts it back to approx. unfired factory rounds which don't seem to shoot in any of my guns.

Then you have threaded the die in too far and have pushed the shoulder back to Full Length Resizing. You can set the die according to the instruction at about 1/8 turn past where it hits the shell holder and just barely push the shoulder back.

Do what works for you, my way is not the only way to skin a cat.