I am reading the Norma Reloading Manual, and they have a short, but advanced article on powders. It is all very interesting, but it got me a bit spooked by a statemnt. They claim that ammunition loaded with ball powder is ballisticly unstable. In a plot they show an 20 % increase in pressure only 30 weeks after loading.

Can this really be true? I always heard that ball powder has less durability, but according to Norma it deteriorates faster than milk. It was also a plot in the article showing this, but I do not manage to add a photo of it. For some reason the experiment is done with the ammo stored at 140 degrees Fahrenheit, but they do not mention the result with normal storage temperature. Why do an experiment on circumstances that are not likely to occure?

does Norma sell ball powder?

Wow, there must be a shit load of ballistically unstable ammo out there, not to mention all the unstable powder sitting on shelves across the country.

What's their definition of unstable ?

A 20 % pressure increase of a max load of ball powder would make for some pretty hot loads.

Deteriorates faster than milk ?

That's a worry - makes me wonder about my old 338WM loads with W785, some of which have been to Africa and back.

Almost all, if not all, the Winchester powders are ball powders. I have used many of them and saw nothing of the kind.

I haven't broken down all of the Winchester branded ammunition, but as far as I can remember the ones I did pull apart for inspection I think they were loaded with ball powders. Much of the Winchester larger bore rifle lines were previously loaded with their excellent Win 780 Supreme powder which is ball powder for sure. I still have it, like it, load it and use it. The older factory ammo loaded with 780 performed perfectly as well as my handholds. It wasn't stored at 140F though as far as I know.

While I am sure Norma knows their business, I am pretty sure there are some qualifiers in the data and that has impacted the results that the above is based on.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
does Norma sell ball powder?

No, they do not. That was one of my conspiracy theories.

I have ball powders that are decades old have not seen any problems with them.

I’ve got about 80 pounds of mil-surplus ( Korean War or very early ‘60’s) 50 BMG “ball powder”. Haven’t seen any obvious issues! memtb

evidently norma is run by politicians

So within normal storing conditions, nobody have had any such problem within a few years storage then. It thought it sounded a bit strange.
Thank you for the replies.

One thing they may not have accounted for. Wife's Uncle loads some 244 Rem stuff with ball powder. It sat around a long time before I shot it. Flat outy primer punches. Obvious over pressure! Over loaded, no. When I finally got a bullet pulled they were actually a little under loaded. Pulled a few more and there were signs that the bullets had fused to the case! Maybe bullet type, case type, powder or a combo of all three. Too blame it all on powder is not very scientific!

quote:

Originally posted by aresm:
So within normal storing conditions, nobody have had any such problem within a few years storage then. It thought it sounded a bit strange.
Thank you for the replies.

I haven't, and I don't know/haven't come across anyone who has.

I guess we were pretty lucky shooting all that WW II ammo loaded with ball powder! Remember the early .458 Win. Mag? As I remember it was loaded with ball powder and the "stories" seem to point to lower not higher pressures and velocity. With no proof offered I have to call this one BS.

It was a test made by Bofors(Maker of Norma and several other brands of powders) in a climate chamber at +65c and 65% air humidity to stress an aging process.

About ten times in a decade I'll read an article, story, or anecdote about smokeless powder going bad. Then about ten times in a decade I'll kill another game animal with surplus powder that is as much as seven decades old. However, I'll admit that my ball surplus powders are only four or five decades old.

Anyway, I'm just thankful that the game animals don't have access to the internet and therefore don't realize how little danger they are in from my ancient powder.

quote:

Originally posted by aresm:
They claim that ammunition loaded with ball powder is ballisticly unstable.

For some reason the experiment is done with the ammo stored at 140 degrees Fahrenheit.

I don't know anyone who stores smokeless gunpowder or loaded ammo at 140 degrees F. I'm sure it was a test to show how NOT to store it. It's supposed to be kept cool and dry no matter whether ballpowder or not.

In fact, because of the way in which it is made, ball powder has a longer shelf life than the others. I believe I read it's because of the acid content. This quote from Propellant Profiles, 6th Edition, pg. 555..."Further, ball powders have an almost unlimited shelf-life being exceptionally stable."

Just shot some WW760 that is least 30+ yrs old, no problem. I have 7-08 loaded with that powder from about 1990, just shot a few rounds of it, no problem.

I have used BL-C 2 for years + never had any negative issues.

I'm dubious of the Norma claim. As with any gunpowder, storage conditions are key. Store it in a cool, dry environment and it will last a very long time loaded ammo included. I still have some H335, a flat ball powder, that I purchased in the 1970s and was likely made in the 1960s that is still stable as confirmed by chronograph. Load it and shoot it and don't worry about it.

Paul

I keep my powder in the wine cellar these days, which, since corks have been replaced by Stelvin, should be a dry-enough place.

However, I was thinking of doing some reloading this afternoon but though the temperature is only about 28 Celcius, the humidity is 80 per cent.

Is it a bad move to open and load your powder on a humid day? Would doing it in front of the air conditioner counter any danger? Is ball powder more likely to clump if loaded in humid conditions?

Sambarmann: Smokeless powder is somewhat hydroscopic (absorbs moisture from the air). It will vary in moisture content with the weather (indoors or out) -- assuming it is in an open container. Storage in a (somewhat) airtight container like the plastic bottles it typically comes in slows or moderates its moisture absorption.

The primary difference in powder that is, say 1% water versus 2% water, is that with a 50 grain load you have 49.5 grains of fuel with 1% water content, whereas you have only 49 grains of fuel if the content is 2%. (Powder and water are almost exactly the same density.)

In other words, if you're using "dry" powder you get more energy per grain from it than using "wet" powder. The tiny moisture content doesn't change the nature of how the powder burns much, if any; but due to its displacing a percentage of the fuel the "wet" powder will act as if you put less of it (by mass, which you actually are) in the cartridge.

So, I guess the answer to your question is that if you want consistency you need to try to keep the powder, whether "wet" or "dry" as close to the same moisture content when loading it at each session. If it starts off "wet", straight from your wine cellar (doesn't everyone have one of those?), and that's the condition in which you loaded your last lot of ammunition, then you don't want to expose it to dry air (for any extended length of time) when loading your next lot, since that will effectively make the same 50 grains contain more fuel.

Hope my somewhat convoluted explanation wasn't too hard to follow.

By the way, moisture content can vary within a container of powder -- that layer of powder exposed to the air may be wetter or dryer than powder several inches below it. I always try to remember to tumble a canister of powder around before using it to assure that the powder is well mixed with itself. This is probably overkill, but it takes only 10 seconds, so why not?

Thanks Stonecreek, I had never thought of the weight discrepancy, worrying only about whether 'wetter' powder might have a different burning rate or might go 'off' quicker.

Since I rarely load anywhere near max, I don't suppose either wet or dry will be a danger in the weight department.

In case you're wondering, my 'cellar' is not even one you can stand up in, just a concrete slab 2'6" below a trapdoor from our laundry, bounded by double/triple walls of bricks and rubble. It varies between 14 C in the winter and 22 degrees on a 40 C summer day. On the really hot days I put a plastic bottle of ice down there, which may reduce the temperature by a degree or two. If replaced often enough, the bottle might even dry out the air because moisture condenses on it and I drain the container it lies in.

I must remember to shake the powder container.

And here I was,having visions of a wine cellar reminiscent of the Count Of Monte Cristo.

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
And here I was,having visions of a wine cellar reminiscent of the Count Of Monte Cristo.

a wine cellar in texas is a 5 gal bucket to store ur Mad Dog 20-20 and Everclear in. and cause its from home depot it has a handle and so is portable from boat to pit.

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
And here I was,having visions of a wine cellar reminiscent of the Count Of Monte Cristo.

That would be nice, filled with old Romanee Conti and Jefferson-era Ch. Lafite. Despite the small size of my storage, it is the only place in the house with room for more stuff.

Its all BS, the military uses ball powder, the factories use ball powder, hunters world wide use ball powder, benchresters thrive on it, and I use ball powder as much as any other powder, some of my favorite ball powders are BLC2, WW 748, H414, 760, H-380 to name a few..Ive hunted the 4 corners of the earth with ball powder at one time or another..So much crap out there in the gun world it often amazes me, and its mostly based on rumor or yellow journalism..The you have the double gun crowd, talk about old wives tales!

PS, you don't need a magnum primer to ignite ball powder, Ive used Fed 210 for many years with all the ball powders..You can however use magnum primers if you wish, but that applies to any powder..

quote:

Originally posted by aresm:
I am reading the Norma Reloading Manual, and they have a short, but advanced article on powders. It is all very interesting, but it got me a bit spooked by a statemnt. They claim that ammunition loaded with ball powder is ballisticly unstable. In a plot they show an 20 % increase in pressure only 30 weeks after loading.

Can this really be true? I always heard that ball powder has less durability, but according to Norma it deteriorates faster than milk. It was also a plot in the article showing this, but I do not manage to add a photo of it. For some reason the experiment is done with the ammo stored at 140 degrees Fahrenheit, but they do not mention the result with normal storage temperature. Why do an experiment on circumstances that are not likely to occure?

The test was probably to show the effects of storing the ammo in vehicles during the Summer in hot climates. In normal conditions there should be no rapid breakdown.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Its all BS, the military uses ball powder, the factories use ball powder, hunters world wide use ball powder, benchresters thrive on it, and I use ball powder as much as any other powder, some of my favorite ball powders are BLC2, WW 748, H414, 760, H-380 to name a few..Ive hunted the 4 corners of the earth with ball powder at one time or another..So much crap out there in the gun world it often amazes me, and its mostly based on rumor or yellow journalism..The you have the double gun crowd, talk about old wives tales!

PS, you don't need a magnum primer to ignite ball powder, Ive used Fed 210 for many years with all the ball powders..You can however use magnum primers if you wish, but that applies to any powder..

I tend to agree with this. Especially since Norma does sell powder, but not ball powder. Until there is at least one other such report collaborating their claim, I consider it nothing more than a sales ploy. And it is certainly no consensus.
Ive used ball powder for decades and all of the claims of instability and such have not proven out at all for myself. But I do live in a semi-arid, relatively mild climate.