I have a friend at work who has done some hand loading. He is of the strong opinion that the factory ammo companies has access to powders unavailable to hand loaders and their factory loads are optimized as to velocities. He is of the opinion that hand loaders, using the same bullet as the factory load and the powder of their choice, cannot exceed the factory velocities unless the factory pressure is exceeded. I don’t think I agree.
What say you?

Don

Everyone is entitled to their opinion...

In almost all circumstances you can EASILY exceed factory velocities with handloads at safe pressures. Pressure generates velocity so these loads may make more pressure than factory ones, but that is due to the factory trying not to get anywhere near the max loads keeping in mind all the rifles that that round could be used in. A notable exception seems to be the Hornady light magnum ammo. There are others who can explain this better, but basically hornady uses a slower burning powder which requires more of it than will fit in the case and thus they have some technique of compacting way more powder into the case than we as handloaders can physically fit. Thus they get great velocities without exceeding pressure maximums.

quote:

Originally posted by dondford:
I have a friend at work who has done some hand loading. He is of the strong opinion that the factory ammo companies has access to powders unavailable to hand loaders and their factory loads are optimized as to velocities. He is of the opinion that hand loaders, using the same bullet as the factory load and the powder of their choice, cannot exceed the factory velocities unless the factory pressure is exceeded. I don’t think I agree.
What say you? Don

In a way, he is right, because there ARE powders not available to us, and loading procedures that cannot be practiced at home (such as used for "Light Magnum" and "HI-Energy" ammo), but: A. Often factory ammo does not reach the published velocity levels; B. Factories purposely underload some calibers because of old/weak guns in that chambering. Three good examples of this that come to mind right off are the 7x57mm Mauser, the .30/'06, and the 8mm Mauser, all three of which will permit US factory load levels to be exceeded by handloads, when a modern, strong action is in use. The .280 Remington factory ammo can also fall in this category, since Remington loads it to a level suited to their semi-autos, which require lower pressures than a good bolt action or single shot!

(I believe it is giving the ammo makers more credit than they deserve to say they "optimize" their cartridge performance to give the maximum safe pressure & velocity levels with a given bullet and powder - they may do this in some calibers some of the time, but NOT ALWAYS!!)

However, it is a mistake to believe that a given maximum pressure level will, without fail, produce the SAME velocity with a given bullet.This is very dependent on the characteristics of the powder being used. For example, when H205 powder was on the market, I found that a certain weight of this powder would give 2680 FPS MV with a Sierra 200-grain bullet from a 22" Ruger No. 3 barrel in .30/40 Krag. An IDENTICAL CHARGE of IMR 4350 gave the same MV. However, there was a significant difference in the pressures generated by those two powders to give essentially the same MV of 2680 FPS. BUT - the H205 load could be used, as it was pretty mild. But the IMR 4350 load was too hot, and ruined primer pockets after two or three shots, whereas the H205 load did not change primer pocket dimensions at all. These results were obtained with WW cases from the same lot, and Federal 210 primers from the same 100-piece container!

Both powders seem pretty slow, and in .30 caliber, the velocity results are often the same or very close using the same charge weight and bullets-but there is SOMETHING different about them, as H205 does it with lower pressure. There are some people who will tell you it is not possible- but IT HAPPENS!

You just don't know unless you have pressure testing equipment.

For sure there are some darn strong loaded factory ammo out there. Weatherby loads are certainly one of them. I've seen some amazing velocity out of factory wsm loads and there have been some amazing velocity out of some early winchester 7stw loads.

All that said I'd have to say that what I've seen from factory ammo as of lately for published velocity on boxes....well its alot closer than most reloading manuals so I'd have to give a nod to factory load "honesty" in general.

It would be my guess that in general alot of factory loads are probably running in the 55,000 psi range. Yup the realoader can push pressures up to 62,000 in alot of cases and never see pressure signs.

Bottom line is you'd be alot better not worrying about the last 100fps and going for accuracy....that in my book is what realoading is really about.

Depends on what factory ammo you are refering to.

I have only found a few Factory ammos that would live up to they're velocity figures and some were terribly off.

Reloader

If all your friend is loading for is to "exceed factory velocities".....he's not the brightest bulb on the tree anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by skb2706:
If all your friend is loading for is to "exceed factory velocities".....he's not the brightest bulb on the tree anyway.

True! There are three main goals with handloaded ammo - A. To besat utilize the accuracy potential of a specific rifle; B. To prevent the loss of the most expensive cartridge component (the case); C. To develop ammunition better suited to one's specific performance requirements than is currently available factory ammo. (In some instances, handloading is the ONLY option, when there is NO factory ammo being made in a given caliber.)

quote:

hand loaders, using the same bullet as the factory load and the powder of their choice, cannot exceed the factory velocities unless the factory pressure is exceeded.

Yes, I'd agree with this. That said there's a lot of cases where it is totally safe to exceed factory pressures. (assuming you are a prudent and knowlegeable handloader)
The .30-06 can usually be improved over factory pressure as can the 7MM Mauser and 8MM mauser and many other military rounds designed for old guns that have been chambered in new modern actions. There are more American rounds that can be loaded hotter safely in the right conditions as well.

However if you have a .270, .25-06, .243 Win, .308, 7MM-08.....and a heck of a lot more american rounds you'll do well just to duplicate the factory velocity. If you are loading a .270 and getting factory velocity you have reason to assume that you're at or about 60,000 PSI or e hell of a lot more . You can go beyond that but it's marginally advantageous and are poor practice of safety. It should never be considered safe to load until factory velocities are achiever however.

This has been said here a million times and it's still true.....if you want something better than a .270 get a .270 Weatherby.....don't try to make a lesser cartridge perform to the larger case's performance.

There is also another factor in factory ammo.

And it's not related to pressure alone.... but rather pressure relative to time/position...

With say a 30-06 the factory not only underloads it in deference to the old single heat treated springfields and original 1895 winchesters out there, but also to the legions of Semi-automatic rifles.

And while most semiautomatic rifles like the Remington 740/742/7400/74 and the Browning BAR sporting rifle can handle pressure nearly as well as some of the strongest bolt action rifles the ammunition for ALL 30-06's have to be
loaded with deference to the gas port pressure requirements of those semi autos IN ADDITION TO the rounds in general being "loaded down" to protect owners of the older weaker actions. AND to help those rifles function reliably.

This same situation occurs with several popular rifle calibers and it isn't limited to just the 30-06, 308win and 223Rem
but those are in general the most effected...

So there are faster (cleaner burning) propellants that won't be used as well as much slower and in the end more energetic propellants that also won't be used in factory ammunition.

If you have a rifle in other than the most popular caliber you'll likely find that the factories simply don't load the bullet you want to use.

I think it really chapped the ass of several ammo manufacturers to have to put labels on certain loadings of ammunition that stated that the ammunition should not be used in a semi-automatic rifle.

Like the Factory loadings for the 223Rem that use 40Gr
varmint bullets.
To say that "they'll function unreliably" in a 223Rem semi-auto is a grotesque understatement.

AllanD

With my handloads I can reach a safe max in MY rifle, I can also load to the max overall length. I can normally exceed factory velocity, sometimes by very large amounts.