Looking for a starting point... .404 J with Norma brass, Woodleigh 400 grn solids and softs.

ANy help appreciated.

Alec,
I'm using H4350/Norma brass/Fed. LRM primer, and North Fork 400 softs and solids. I started at 74 grs, and moved up to 82. I started getting pressure signs at 80 so I settled on a load of 76 grs. for the solids and 78 for the soft's. Both shoot to the same POI and I'm getting 2290 at the muzzle. Will be using them on Buffalo this August. This is the only powder I have any experience with in the 404.

I use Norma 203B/RL-15 with a foam plug to hold the powder in position. Very uniform velocity and reduced felt recoil.

Thanks!

Varget works for me with traditional velocities. No foam backer rod needed.
Woodleigh 400’s, Hawk 400’s, Fed 215
Start with 75 grains and work up.

The load Norma used when loading 404 ammunition for Parker Hale which I still have some of and have used on buffalo is as follows;
Norma cases, Norma primers and Norma made cup and core 400gr solid bullet (not Woodleigh), 87.0grs N204, 2245 MV with a pressure of 34,765 psi. I have a letter from Norma confirming this load.

Other data published by Norma for the 404 with a Norma 400gr solid bullet and a Woodleigh soft nose 347gr bullet is as follows;

400gr solid - 79.5grs N203-B 2398 MV

85.6grs N204 2339 MV


347gr soft - 82.6gr N203-B 2556 MV

88.7gr N204 2497 MV


I have not tried any of the above loads other than the first listed Parker Hale (Norma) factory load.

My own reloads using RWS cases, CCI 250M primers and RWS solid bullets is 85.0gr IMR4831 for around 2100fps (very successful on buffalo).

For the 347gr RWS soft I used 87.0gr IMR4831 (work well on deer and feral goat)

I've never used any other powder, don't need a wad/filler and both loads are very accurate.

Thank you all very much. I am saving the data.

AT

My go to load for several 404s was 93 grs of old WW2 4831 ( I still have 40 lbs. of that old stuff)....It got me 2400 FPS plus or minus..96 grs was almost 2600 FPS, and it was a fine load and I used it a lot on Buffalo, but recoil was right up there so I back off to 2400 FPS and neither I nor the buffalo could tell the difference..I also used RL-15 to a lesser degree. I would think todays powder would be short core 4831 but have not tried it, don't need to anyway..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
My go to load for several 404s was 93 grs of old WW2 4831 ( I still have 40 lbs. of that old stuff)....It got me 2400 FPS plus or minus..96 grs was almost 2600 FPS, and it was a fine load and I used it a lot on Buffalo, but recoil was right up there so I back off to 2400 FPS and neither I nor the buffalo could tell the difference..I also used RL-15 to a lesser degree. I would think todays powder would be short core 4831 but have not tried it, don't need to anyway..

Hey Ray, in all your previous postings in various discussions on loading for the 404 you have provided the same loads as you have above but for IMR4831!!!!
Old WWII 4831 is Bruce Hodgson's H4831 a different slower powder than IMR 4831. You have often stated that IMR 4831 is your favourite powder and only one you use for the 404.

For safety sake which is it you use Hodgdon H4831 or Dupont IMR4831?

I have not, I have used both however and I have used H4831 and 4350 DATA (another surplus)with the same number of grs. in both the 404 and the 450-400

I used both the old stuff and the modern IMR-4831 in the 404, you normally get more velocity in the old surplus stuff and less pressure, but in the 404 and 450-400 one is about as good as the other,

In a .270 for instance where your playing with 55,000 to 65,000 PSI the slight difference is magnified, however in the 404 and 450 at 2400 and 2100 respectively it makes no difference at all and I kept both loaded with both powders and they all shot to the same POI and were not max loads to start with as 2400 is the magical veloctily for a 40 cal. DG rifle IMO, its easy on bullet performance...

I also used RL-15 and both H and IMR 4350 with those calibers..but your correct in that I mostly used IMR-3831 in the 404. as I try to save the WW2 stuff for my .270..At one time early on powder was hard t come by an required I use WW2 surplus stuff, it could be had on the black market..before your time I suspect.

If I muddled your brain I apoligise, hope this clears you up..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have not, I have used both however and I have used H4831 and 4350 DATA (another surplus)with the same number of grs. in both the 404 and the 450-400

I used both the old stuff and the modern IMR-4831 in the 404, you normally get more velocity in the old surplus stuff and less pressure, but in the 404 and 450-400 one is about as good as the other,

In a .270 for instance where your playing with 55,000 to 65,000 PSI the slight difference is magnified, however in the 404 and 450 at 2400 and 2100 respectively it makes no difference at all and I kept both loaded with both powders and they all shot to the same POI and were not max loads to start with as 2400 is the magical veloctily for a 40 cal. DG rifle IMO, its easy on bullet performance...

I also used RL-15 and both H and IMR 4350 with those calibers..but your correct in that I mostly used IMR-3831 in the 404. as I try to save the WW2 stuff for my .270..At one time early on powder was hard t come by an required I use WW2 surplus stuff, it could be had on the black market..before your time I suspect.

If I muddled your brain I apoligise, hope this clears you up..

Hi Ray

Yes you did muddle my brain as I have read numerous posts of yours about loads for the 404 and this is the first one I've seen where you seemed to be promoting H4831 as 'the' powder with no mention of IMR4831. That's what made me sit up and take notice and ask the question. I don't concur with you that both H4831 and IMR4831 can be used interchangeably, yes for lower loadings in large cases they could but when getting up to your charges in the 90 grain range, 96.0 grains IMR4831 is not the same as same charge of H4831. I'm talking of the old surplus H4831 that you are too. The current Australian made H4831 is a bit faster than the old WWII surplus powder and is closer to the burn rate of IMR4831 so using the modern Hodgdon H4831 powder (AR2213SC as we know it down under and in Europe) you would be reasonable safe at less than maximum charges if interchanging.

Not wanting to argue with you over it but when posting loads that others may use we need to be quite clear on just which powder we are talking about especially with those powders that are similarly/confusingly numbered.

Quote from one of your earlier posts below:

"Been shooting one for 45 years, and there is only one powder, IMR-4831. All loads are for 400 gr. bullets with Fed 215 primers in Bell, Norma and RWS brass, all are mild of pressure in my 26" barrel Mauser. All 5 shot averages.
1. 95 grs. IMR-4831 2662FPS
2. 93 " " " 2440 "
3. 90 " " " 2372
4. 87 " " " 2307

All good accurate loads

I have shot 78,79 grs. of RL-15 for 2475 av. and 84 grs of 4350 and these are nice loads but I only use IMR4831 for my hunting rifles and mostly the 87 gr. load as it does a fine job on Buffalo with softs and solids.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Let put it this way, I doubt that anyone on this forum has any usable amount of old surplus 4831, so my quote of it is/was ment to show that I used it quite a bit, but we are talking over a 50 or so year time..I shot my loads with IMR-4831 and you posted them.

What these folks have is IMR and H4831 and now SC 4831 and all these will perform at 93 grs. as stated at 2400 FPS in the 404. Also with the charges I used in the 450-400 at 8? grs...I only show what I use or have used other than SC and I made that clear, but it would work..

I think your over stating your case, You case on burning rates and powder charges is just not valid..at the charge mentioned 93 grs. in the huge 404 case...I don't want to get in a pissin contest with you but you cannot get enough H or IMR 4831 in a 404 case to blow up a modern rifle..Ive gone way beyond max to satisfy myself on that, as shown wherein I got 2600 FPS and actually used it in the heat of AFrica in my old Jefferys 26 inch gun. correction 27 inch gun.

For this mans post I would suggest a starting load of 87 grs of IMR 4831 with a 400 gr bullet and work up to about 90 to 93 wherever he is content to be..beyond that recoil becomes a problem with me anyway..Jim Brockman, Brockman guns, said my 95 grean loads were super accurate bot loosened his teeth..I concur.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Let put it this way, I doubt that anyone on this forum has any usable amount of old surplus 4831, so my quote of it is/was ment to show that I used it quite a bit, but we are talking over a 50 or so year time..I shot my loads with IMR-4831 and you posted them.

What these folks have is IMR and H4831 and now SC 4831 and all these will perform at 93 grs. as stated at 2400 FPS in the 404. Also with the charges I used in the 450-400 at 8? grs...I only show what I use or have used other than SC and I made that clear, but it would work..

I think your over stating your case, You case on burning rates and powder charges is just not valid..at the charge mentioned 93 grs. in the huge 404 case...I don't want to get in a pissin contest with you but you cannot get enough H or IMR 4831 in a 404 case to blow up a modern rifle..Ive gone way beyond max to satisfy myself on that, as shown wherein I got 2600 FPS and actually used it in the heat of AFrica in my old Jefferys 26 inch gun. correction 27 inch gun.

For this mans post I would suggest a starting load of 87 grs of IMR 4831 with a 400 gr bullet and work up to about 90 to 93 wherever he is content to be..beyond that recoil becomes a problem with me anyway..Jim Brockman, Brockman guns, said my 95 grean loads were super accurate bot loosened his teeth..I concur.

Don't get me wrong Ray I'm on your side, IMR 4831 is the only powder I use in my 404 for jacketed bullet loads. I did use some of the old H 4831 when I had it, the only powder of many I tried with my 400gr plain base cast bullets, but it was a low charge down at 55 grs where I got any sort of grouping but I couldn't stomach the odd slight delay fire. I was likely getting into detonation territory so back out on that powder. Since then I have devised a fairly effective way of cutting a shoulder on the cast bullet bases to take a 44 cal gas check. This solved the accuracy problem and now use H4350 for heavier cast loads and Red Dot or equivalent for light cast loads. Still have IMR 4831 for jacketed 347gr and 400gr, 85.0 grs with the 400gr gets me an effective buffalo killer load up to the earlier Parker Hale and Kynoch factory POI.

Eagle27,
I have no experience with cast bullets in the 404 Jefferys or any big bore for that matter, all my loads were destined for thumping buffalo, Hippo,Lion, and and one elephant as I recall.

For that I use the 404 for a number of years, maybe 30 or 40..and a lot of buffalo etc. I used 93 grs. of the old surplus 4831, IMR-4831 and H-4831, same velocity and POI, pretty well filled the case and I trimmed the expander ball to make for a snug fit, and use a every so light crimp, the tight neck and full case of powder was as efficient as a heavy crimp, also did this on all my double rifles..

In such caliber as the 30-06, 270, I used all three powders but in different grain charges by one or more grs. ultimatly as you referred to..Using all three 4831s in those two calibers didn't harm anything but there was a difference pressure when using the same 60 grs in that the one .270 I had would not hold 60 grs, another 30-06 would but some of the bullets would move forward a tad overnight an stick in the magazine. I had to reduce the loads in both calibers by a grain or three at the most as I recall.

Ive been known to tinker, Jack Belk says he starts at max plus and works his way down, I said yeah like most gunsmith and old timers, where do you think I learned it..