The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading OK Guys, Ease My Fear of Nosler Ballistic Tips!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I guess you can tell that I am no fan of Nosler BT bullets for hunting. I have used them in the past (150 grains in 30-'06) and have killed some deer that dropped like they were struck by lightning, but I've also lost deer that I know were well hit because of the lack of blood spoor. I've also recoved a few that I should not have recovered because there was no blood trail. Worst of all, I had a friend shoot one in the shoulder with them and blow the shoulder completely off without penetrating the vitals. Only persistant tracking and blood loss allowed for eventual recovery. I came to believe that they are just too darn frangible for hunting deer-sized game. Too bad they shoot so darn good! Now, here's my dilemma: My son has been invited to do doe control on an Alabama Black Belt estate that really needs it. He wants to use his newly aquired Remington SPR-18 in .308 and asked me to develop a load for it. Unfortunately, nothing shoots worth a crap in it that I would trust past 100 yards except 150-grain Ballistic Tips! (Even those only group around 5-6 inches at 200.) Since some of the green fields he will be shooting over (call this "shooting," not hunting), are over 200 yards across, he can expect some shots at that distance. So what should I do? Should I go ahead and let him use the 150s, or should I make him use one of his other rifles that are tack drivers? He really wants to use this gun (admittedly, it is an absolute joy to carry -- weighs nothing, and is short enough to feel like you are carrying a pistol). I've told him that if he uses the .308 with the BTs, he cannot shoot anything in the shoulder -- behind the shoulder and in the neck only! I absolutely abhor losing game, and am having a hard time with this one. So make me feel better about .308 Ballistic Tips. I know some of you guys like them. Tell me why. | ||
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How long has it been since you shot any? When they first came out I lost game with them as well and swore off of them forever. I believe that they are made a little stronger now and if you do not try to load them very warm at all then I think that they will work very well. I have shot some animals with them in the last few years to try them out once more and while yes I still think that they are too fragile to push over 2800 fps on big game they should work extremely well at 2600 to 2700 out of that 308. And in that light rifle he will enjoy shooting them a heck of a lot more , and that also will help his shooting. (When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.) | |||
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My load for my SAKO action/Obermeyer bbl/McMillan stock rifle: Lapua brass, Fed 210M primer, Varget, 150 NBT. Feel better?  Until I have a negative incident with Btips, I will continue to use them (going on 20 years now). Otherwise, you already partially answered your own question....if your son may take a shot over 200 yards, then he SHOULD take a tack driver rifle. I can't see it any other way. If he will keep his shots to 200 and under, let him take the 308. EVERYONE should have complete confidence in their equipment, if you do not, then it is definitely time to make a change. I see no reason why you can't get a decent load and soon, with a partition or TTSX bullet. Both are easy to get good groups with in my experience. And both will hold up with shoulder shot placement. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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My field experience with Ballistic Tips includes the 140 grainand 150 grain 7mm bullets and the 165 grain 30 caliber bullets. This latter only shot from my 308 pushed to 2600 fps and I really can say this bullet performed perfectly, haven't recovered one yet. The 7MM 150 grain bullets have performed perfectly pushe to as fast as 3000fps, the 140's are just fine from my 7x57 at 2700fps. One of the last recovered, the only one I have recovered. It penetrated 20 inches of deer going thru ribs at an angle both sides and ending up under the hide half way up the neck. All these bullets were manufactured less than 6 years ago. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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I used BTs all the time. I still use 150BTs in my 308Norma. Usually for hog control and they work fine. On my other rifles I simply switched to the accubond. In most cases didn't even have to change the load. I use accubond for about 90% of my shooting. I have never had a bullet failure from small deer to large elk and Kudu. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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you can always load some 150 gr. cor-loks they should work at that range well. | |||
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I think there are a couple reasons why the 150gr BTs are perfectly fine. First, he is going to be shooting a doe, not a big buck or an elk. It wouldn't concern me at all to aim right for the shoulder. Second, the .308 is pushing that bullet at a moderate velocity. If he were shooting a 300 WM, then I wouldn't choose the BT, but the velocity of the .308 is perfectly within the design of the BT. | |||
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 I've long lost count of the wild hogs I have taken with the .308 WCF and a 150 grain Ballistic Tip at 2780 fps from the 20" barrel. And most of the time, I get complete penetration. The two recovered 6.5mm/120s were taken from a deer shot with a 14" 6.5x.308 at 50 yards (bullet on left) and a large boar hog taken with a 6.5x55 rifle at 110 yards. Both gave exceptional performance. The hog was taken with a quartering shot, and the bullet broke the onside shoulder, wrecked the lungs, destroyed part of the liver and was found under the hide a few inches past the last rib. I actually thought it had exited as there was a nice 2" wound, but that was the result of secondary bone fragments. MV of that load was around 2950 fps. For such hard impact, I'd say that was excellent terminal performance. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Have you tried Nosler Accubonds?? In almost every rifle that I own, they shoot as well or better than Ballistic tips and they are bonded. They might be the answer to your problem. The BC is the same and you can use the same loads. Elite Archery and High Country dealer. | |||
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I have tried 165-grain Accubonds, and they don't do well. I did discover something about the rifle yesterday afternoon: It seems that this gun is particularly sensitive to barrel heat-up. With the first shot on a cold, fouled barrel, the bullet strikes within an inch of my zero bull. The second shot is usually pretty close to the first (1 to 1-1/2 inches). It's the third shot that really throws thing out of whack, striking up to four inches high with 150-grain core-lokts (only two inches higher with Ballistic Tips, which is why I settled on them). The funny thing is, the barrel does not feel hot to the touch, but that might be a product of the fact that SPR barrels are chrome lined. I loaded up a bunch of BTs last night, and am going back to the range late today. With them I plan to fire only groups on a cooled-down barrel (at least five minutes between shots; as cools as the weather is right now, that should be plenty), at both 100 and 200 yards. If I get acceptable groups doing this, then the gun is good to go. In fact, I might even use it myself a few times. Like I said, this little rifle is a dream to carry! | |||
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G-Hntr, I agree 100% with duckboat's statement above. I've used 165 gr. BT's in the .30/06 Sprg. with complete satisfaction on all manner of mid-sized game, Roe, Red & Fallow Deer, Wild Boar, & Chamois for example. I left the 150 BT's for the .308 Win. though and that turned out to be the right decision, they give sterling all-round performance and the accuracy is fantastic. The 2600-2700 fps velocity with the .308 Win. is just perfect for accuracy and the BT's terminal perfomance on the same game mentioned above IMO. I use the .284" 140 gr., .308" 150 & 165 gr. BT's for all my accuracy testing in 7x57, 7x64 Brenneke, 7mm Rem. Mag., .308 Win., .30/06 Sprg. .300 Win. Mag. & 300 Weatherby Mag. because I know they will shoot; if not there's usually something amiss with the platform. Cheers, Number 10 | |||
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I have not used BT bullets since they first came out in 30 cal 130 grainers. Had them blow up badly on deer I shot with a Ruger mini-30. I was young and did not know that the 130 was a varmint bullet. I just stick to Hornady spire points on deer anymore in 762x 39. | |||
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The thing that eased my mind about BTs was when I was shooting an 8X57 one day and recovered several slugs from the ground, some were shot into targets and some into water jugs. I shot speer hot cores, hornadys and BTs. The size of the mushrooms was incredible, but what really impressed me was the way they held together. I did find a couple that seperated, but this was an extreme torture test, most of them mushroomed WAY back but still held together. I feel that the modest velocities of the 8X57 was a factor, but they still held together as well as the hot cores. Ive come to the conclusion that if you pick one that has a good long BC and it is well placed that they SHOULD perform well on anything up to deer, mostly because of Noslers quality swaging methods and materials. I would however like to have some more detailed information about Noslers claim that some of them are tougher than others, (Im guessing because of the jacket). They are pretty vague about that point and Ive not seen them specify which ones are actually rated for "big game". If you want to use BTs but are concerned then I would suggest using the heaviest BT you can and possibly droping the velocity a bit. | |||
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Try shooting 165s or 180 BTs. I personally wouldn't shoot 150 anyhting in the 06. I like to launch all my slugs between 2650 and 2825. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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390ish wrote:
First of all, Nosler does NOT make a 130 grainer in .30 caliber. Secondly, Nosler does not offer a "varmint" bullet in .30 caliber either. Lastly, 7.62x39 velocities can't even make a legitimate varmint bullet "blow up." I use the 125 grain Ballistic Tip in .30 Herretts and similar cartridges in specialty pistols -- guns which basically duplicate 7.62 velocities -- and have never, ever had one "blow up." To the contrary, they virtually always exit given broadside presentation of any deer or hog under 250 pounds. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Hey GAHUNTER, A couple of the posters made comments concerning "how old" the B-Tips are which are being discussed. Valid point since I'm aware of at least 4-generations of B-Tips. Some of the problems people mention have been "designed out of the B-Tips" in the current Generation. The Hunting Grade B-Tips still expand quickly but not as quick or as much as earlier versions. It is still a rapidly expanding Bullet though and as long as a person takes that into account, the B-Tips should do well for them. I've used a whole bunch of the older Generations on Deer and never had a Failure. Did have a whole lot of Blood Shot meat when the Impact Velocity was high though. Real good that you noticed this issue. Might be a Bedding Problem or perhaps the barrel needs a Cryo Treatment. Maybe the Barrel needs to be Floated, or perhaps it needs more Pressure on it. However, think back about how many shots you normally take in-a-row at Deer. I believe if you haven't Killed it by the time you send a Second Shot, there is something seriously wrong and the shooting should STOP. At that point, something needs to be addressed with the rifle. Best of luck to you. | |||
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okay, professor. this was back in 1990 or so. maybe it was a 125 grain. at any rate it was lighter than a 150 grain. i shot a doe quartering away at about 40 yards and i did not get penetration into the chest cavity. it flopped and ran all over the place before i could get up on it and put another one its head. | |||
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My initial use of B-tips was for varminting in .224 calibers.....great bullets....spendy a bit but really great bullets. Then I tried them in the .270 Win and liked them for a couple years but just didn't get pass thrus.....until one day I hit a deer quite well and spent an hour looking for it and that was when I decided to go the a heavier built bullet to try to get a better blood trail by having two holes in the deer. I've used mostly Hornady interlocks since then and have no complaints.....I've also used a few SST's and like them as well but in all seriousness they are similar to the B-Tips. It is my understanding that Nosler had changed them ovver the years but didn'tchange the name.....this has been an error IMO because I don't keep track of them unless they change the name.....IMO the old solid base may be a better bullet but I've never tried them either.....I've just hung around the Hornady interlocks mostly for deer....and of course dabbeled in some "premium"bullets like A-Frames and Northforks as well.....
sorry....No can do.....Nosler blew this one and it just might be among their very best bullets! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I used some 165 or 168 gr bt federal prems in a 30/06 once. shot 1 doe lung sholder hit at about 80yrds angled away up hill it went about 60 or 70 yards before it knew it was dead. I dont like bt in my 270 but on the other hand the 25/06 100gr bt's are outstanding. buddy of mine was shooting 130gr bt in a 270 got a txas heart shot and destroyed one of the hams and had to chase it down, but again it all has to do with shot placement. these days and for quiet a few years now I use 140gr honady sp in my 270 and havent found anything better Dave | |||
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Hot shot, It's a $200 rifle built by Russian vodka swiggers on a Friday afternoon! Of course it has bedding problems. It also had scope mounting problems as the integral scope rail was cut at an angle, so that there was no scope in the world that had enough windage to get this gun on paper. I had to mount a Weaver rail on top of the receiver to fix that. I used a gunsmith to do that. I also used a gunsmith to lighten the 28-pound trigger (at least that's what it seemed like) down to four pounds. I ain't spending no more money on what was to be a bargin basement rifle! I took it to the range yesterday and shot slow groups with the BTs. Got 1-1/2 inch group with no flyers. It shot 3-inches low at 200. The rifle is good to go -- as is! | |||
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I misread the above to believe it was a "new production rifle". Seems like you had the GunSmith do a lot of work to it - had no idea about that. | |||
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Sorry for calling you by the wrong name, Hot Core (I assume that handle is in honor of the Speer product by the same name). I don't know how it came out Hot Shot. My point is that it is a very cheap rifle for which I have spent much more money on than I ever intended. It's supposed to be expendable if it is stolen down at Auburn (where we've already last a Remington 700 and a Beretta O/U -- that one really hurt). By the time I get finished with it, I'm afraid I'll have as much invested in it as I would if I had bought a decent Savage Model 111 package gun with accu-trigger and scope. | |||
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I thought that was a bit strange. Edited the above. Lots of excellent Deer Hunting near Auburn. I lived just across the bridge on the South side of Huntsville for awhile and got to Hunt a good bit of the state. Thought I had some Coons cleaning up Bass guts that I tossed out and it turned out to be a Black Bear. Some rifles are just difficult to get to shoot well. And then one day you happen to find something it likes and it shoots great. Lots of excellent Bullets for the 308Win. Any Standard Grade Bullet should work just fine. I've used mostly 150gr and 165gr for Deer. Varget or IMR-4064 always worked well for me with the 150gr bullets and H380 for the 165gr ones. But, every rifle is different. If he can meet a local who has a Gun Safe at home, that might work. If he lives off campus, some Gun Safes can be had for the cost of the Remingto 700 and you can Bolt it to studs inside a closet while he is there. Then he can take it with him later on. Darn shame about the crooks getting away. | |||
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