I've always gotten good groups with Triple Shock Bullets - except this time. My groups with the 168 Triple Shocks have been averaging 1.6". So.... I called Barnes to get their advice.

Here is the manual load for 168XXX (300 Win Mag) and what they recommended. Lots of difference.....and potentially dangerous!

First of all, the manual shows they worked their load with a Federal GM 210M primer. Why wouldn't they work a load for a 300WM with a 215M Magnum primer instead of a large rifle primer?

The manual shows the load for
H 4350 as:

starting 68.0G 2936 fps
maximum 73.0G 3152 fps

The little note that comes inside the triple shock box says: The reduced bearing surface of the triple shock X-Bullet may result in reduced pressures compared to the X Bullet To compensate for this and achieve maximum velocity it may be possible to EXCEED the maximum load by 1 or 2 grains, working up in 1/2 grain increments. Watch for signs of excess pressure, yadda,yadda, yadda.

In other words, you can (possibly) carefully work up to 75.0 grains. At 70.5 grains I was getting over 3300 fps (verified on 2 chronos-24" Barrel) and signs of pressure, so I'm thinking WTF?

I called Barnes.

They told me they had data for the 168 Triple Shock for the 300WM for H 4350

Here it is:

168XXX
Min 62G 2862 fps
Max 68.5 3095 fps

As you can see, their mininum in the book is .5 grain under the maximum actual load one should use for the triple shock. So, if I did not phone them I would think the maximum would be 75.0 grains instead 68.5 grains 6.5 grains more! enough to potentially "blow up" a rifle.

I just used this one powder for an example but two more powders I have, are similar.

I don't want to "slam" Barnes because I love their bullets. You would think there would be a warning on their website though. Reloading can be dangerous if we are using bad info.

Jeff

I had the same issue with 180 TSX and a 300 RUM. I did not have any problems starting at max and working up with a 300 Wby. I have also noticed there is quite a bit difference between what the Bullet Manufactures and Powder Manufactures show as max charge for certain bullets. When I spoke to barnes after they told me what you printed they also gave me the standard warning of starting 10% less than max load and work up.

The triple shocks I have tried....and especially the 168 seem to go fast for bullets of their weight. I don't believe there is a "free" ride and the fact that they go fast scares me. I WOULD SAY BE VERY CAREFUL WORKING WITH ANY TSX.
Now to give Barnes credit the other day I emailed them for info on the tsx's for 300 wby and 300 win and got very very speedy replies with data for all tsx weights. I would recomend that anyone wanting to work with the tsx e-mail them for the latest charts. (AND YES, MUCH OF THE NEW DATA IS REDUCED DRAMATICALLY)....I think the lawyer word has reached top level management.

I find that I am able to acheive about 40fps more with the tsx than with the ballistic point or partition.However I am using 2gr to 5 gr less powder depending on the rifle.I just used the starting loads for the nosler bullets and worked up watching for pressure signs.I attribute the extra velocity to less friction due to less surface area,similar to how coated bullets can be driven faster with the same pressure.

Kraky,

Barnes does not have very much data for the TSX yet. They are supposed to email me the RUM in the next week or so. They are just now finishing up the .308 Calibers.

I just purchasd there new MRX bullet's for my 300 rum.I e-mailed them over a week ago and have not heard back from them. I will be loading them up the same as the TSX. I am using the Alliant powder guide , just to stay on the safe side.

This is why I have at least 8 reloading manuals to compare. Then I start at a conservative low charge and work up looking for any pressure signs in my firearm.

The Barnes manual isn't the only one that sometimes doesn't make sense. In the cases I've chronographed with TSXs vs other bullets of the same weight, the TSX was significantly faster without signs of excess pressure.

Hey Jeff

I load a lot of TSX's. Just threw away 27 empty boxes the other day, couldn't find a use for them. I do not accept that you can exceed the normal load 1 to 2 grains until it is proven in my rifles. I load the TSX just like any other bullet in that caliber/weight.

I also use the One Book / One Caliber from www.loadboods.com and compare all the data for that weight bullet and make up my own mind. For example in your case I would note the following in that book from these manufacturers:

Hornady - H4350 from 58.3 gr to 71.4 gr
Nosler (165 gr bullet) - H4350 from 69 gr to 73 gr
Sierra - doesn't list H4350
Speer - H4350 from 71 gr to 75 gr
Hodgdon - H4350 from 66 gr to 70 gr
Barnes (165 gr bullet) - H4350 from 68 gr to 73 gr
Swift (165 gr bullet) - H4350 from 65.1 gr to 70 gr

I then make a note of what the Nosler #5 manual lists as the "Most Accurate Powder Tested", which is RL19 from 71 gr to 75 gr.

Based upon all the data, choose your start between the highest stated minimum charge and the lowest stated maximum charge. Which in this case will not work because Speer lists 71 gr as the minimum charge and 2 of them list 70 gr as the maximum charge.

Not any one manual is sufficient information for choosing powder charge start points.

Hey, you did it right by starting lower and working up looking for pressure.

Loading manual data sucks!

That being said I had the best accuracy from IMR4831 with the 168 gr TSX in 300 win mag.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Alexander:
...The little note that comes inside the triple shock box says: The reduced bearing surface of the triple shock X-Bullet may result in reduced pressures compared to the X Bullet To compensate for this and achieve maximum velocity it may be possible to EXCEED the maximum load by 1 or 2 grains, working up in 1/2 grain increments. Watch for signs of excess pressure, yadda,yadda, yadda.

In other words, you can (possibly) carefully work up to 75.0 grains. At 70.5 grains I was getting over 3300 fps (verified on 2 chronos-24" Barrel) and signs of pressure, so ...

Hey Jeff, When you see the word "may", by definition it also means another possibility exhists which is "may not".

And according to you they did say to, "Watch for signs of excess pressure", which is excellent advice. Perhaps they should have said, "When you see signs of Excess Pressure, STOP and back off a couple of grains.", or perhaps that is what they said in the yadda, yadda, yadda.

Once they said to "Watch for signs of excess pressure", the Reloader is supposed to know that means STOP when the Pressure Signs appear. It does not mean to just keep on dumping Powder in and continue firing.

quote:

So, if I did not phone them I would think the maximum would be 75.0 grains instead 68.5 grains 6.5 grains more! enough to potentially "blow up" a rifle.

Your misunderstanding about what to do when seeing Pressure Signs is the actual Problem.

In any particular rifle, you "may" be able to exceed the Loads listed in the Book, "may" be able to reach those same levels, or "may" not even come close. Again, "may" is the word that should indicate there is more than one possible outcome.

quote:

I just used this one powder for an example but two more powders I have, are similar.

I don't want to "slam" Barnes because I love their bullets.

Good, because they gave you a proper Warning.

quote:

You would think there would be a warning on their website though. Reloading can be dangerous if we are using bad info.

Though I agree with your last sentence, I'd suspect they have the - "Watch for signs of excess pressure." - warning on their web site.

The key here is understanding you "may not"(possibly not, might not, etc.) be able to reach the Book Loads at a SAFE Pressure. And according to you, they did tell you to "Watch for signs of excess pressure."
---

That is true for ALL Manuals. The data in them is only really accurate for the specific firearms they Tested those Loads in.

And watching a chronograph believing it will indicate Pressure is a common misconception. The only thing a chronograph will tell you about is Velocity. And that doesn't tell you if the specific load in that rifle has Pressure Signs or not, only the velocity of the bullet crossing the screens.
---

As to the "Primer" being different than what you expected them to use, Barnes simply told you what they used. It indicates to me that they had no Ignition Problems using the typically mild Primer during their Testing with those loads.

Best of luck to you.

Barnes is the last source I would turn to. Look at the .300 WSM Page 377, and the cartridge case dimensions, then look at a .308 Page 343 Winchester... Bet you didn't know they were the same did you! Accuracy counts in this game of reloading... Barnes is last.

When I wanted to load the 300gr. TSX's in my 375 RUM I pulled the load data for the original X Bullet. With RL22 the load data was as follows:

94.0gr @ 2638fps start and 99.0gr. @ 2778fps max

I found 2 loads within that range that just flat out shoot. 95.0gr RL22 @ 2770fps Avg. and 98.5gr RL22 @ 2880fps Avg. At 99.0gr. I started getting shiny ejector marks on the brass in 95-100 degree weather. Interesting to note that the TSX added about 100-130fps over the original X Bullet's...and there was no need (or want) for the extra 1 - 2gr.

I think that the TSX is a great bullet that manages to combine spectacular accuracy in addition to excellent terminal hunting performance. Having said that, I think Barnes might have rushed them to market a little too soon without first providing tested load data to go along with them. In my opinion, that is taking a significant risk on their part even given their warning's and disclaimers.

quote:

Barnes is the last source I would turn to. Look at the .300 WSM Page 377, and the cartridge case dimensions, then look at a .308 Page 343 Winchester... Bet you didn't know they were the same did you! Accuracy counts in this game of reloading... Barnes is last.

I had never noticed that before. There are a few professions in the world where just rounding up or not paying careful attention to details is perfectly acceptable...reloading is certainly not one of them. Truly an instance where being an educated and well informed consumer could be beneficial to your health.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
"When you see signs of Excess Pressure, STOP and back off a couple of grains.", or perhaps that is what they said in the yadda, yadda, yadda.

Once they said to "Watch for signs of excess pressure", the Reloader is supposed to know that means STOP when the Pressure Signs appear. It does not mean to just keep on dumping Powder in and continue firing.

Best of luck to you.

I think you missed my point. If I STARTED with their STARTING load in the book - THE FIRST SHOT WOULD HAVE BLOWN IT UP. THERE IS NO WATCHING FOR SIGNS OF EXCESS PRESSURE". THERE IS NO BACKING OFF . The starting load in the manual could have potentially been 6 grains too hot (68.0 grains starting in the manual vs 62.0 in their tests). I've reloaded for a number of years. One thing that has kept me out of trouble is being very conservative and working up slowly. I have at least 30 manuals and read them all - so I know that different people with different test barrels, different humidity, temperature, etc, make a difference.

I agree with you somewhat, that the only true thing a chronograph tell you is velocity. However, if you are getting way more velocity with much lighter loads than the factory got - common sense tells you that something is wrong. You can't get increased velocity without increasing pressure with the same powder.

I put this thread as a "heads up" for other folks. Their chamber may be tighter than mine, and bad things could happen.

Jeff

I've seen errors in the French loading manuals, for instance the .375 H&H loads in the English language version compared to the French language version or the 500 grain bullet load for the 416 Rigby, and contacted them to inform them. They didn't do a thing to correct the error, even on their web site which they just updated. It still shows the 500 grain bullet load for the 416 Rigby. What's a sensible person to do?

Wink is right, the manula still requires a good dose of commom sense when handloading. I go through several manuals & visit the powder data sites. Then I start my load devl based on the avg. for a max. load I'll only push into that avg. if vel. match the data & there are no pressure signs.
BTW Jeff, you don't need magnum primers to ignite 70gr of H4350, that's a good reason NOT to use them. Running a hot primer w/ a med. burning powder, near max., only invites pressure problems.

My experience with the TSX is that you load more powder than the old X, but about 1 grain less than a partition, etc. I tend to use common sense, a lot of load manuals and work carefully. If your velocity is higher than the norm, pressure probably is as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Alexander:
...I think you missed my point. If I STARTED with their STARTING load in the book - THE FIRST SHOT WOULD HAVE BLOWN IT UP. THERE IS NO WATCHING FOR SIGNS OF EXCESS PRESSURE". THERE IS NO BACKING OFF . The starting load in the manual could have potentially been 6 grains too hot (68.0 grains starting in the manual vs 62.0 in their tests).

Hey Jeff, I believe "I did miss your initial point".

I'd say the possibility exists just as you describe.

I'd also say there is a higher probability that if it had been a tight Chambered and tight Bore rifle, that the worst that would have happened would have been a "snug" Bolt Lift in 999 out of 1000 rifles.

But I'm not arguing that point with you, I did misunderstand.
---

However....

quote:

You can't get increased velocity without increasing pressure with the same powder.

I disagree.

If you are comparing a shot in your rifle to a Velocity shown in a Manual or someone else's rifle, then it is possible to get less, the same or more Pressure at the same exact Velocity.

And if you use a chronograph long enough on enough rifles, you will also find there are situations when Powder is "added" in some cartridges, that the Velocity will remain the same or go down a bit while the Pressure can increase substantially.
---

I agree you did the right thing by posting this thread so people can understand the importance of "cross-checking" Load References.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

I disagree.

If you are comparing a shot in your rifle to a Velocity shown in a Manual or someone else's rifle, then it is possible to get less, the same or more Pressure at the same exact Velocity.

I totally agree with you here. However, if you use the same powder, in the same barrel, any increase in velocity (with the same powder) will also increase the pressure. And if you are getting 300+ fps, with the same powder as the manual, you "may" potentially have a problem. There is no free lunch. You are right that primers cratering or backing out, shiny brass, and hard bolt lift are signs of excess pressure- but if you have a custom chambered aftermarket barrel, (and action work) sometimes this doesn't show until it's too late. I'm real conservative and methodical in working up loads (The brass, bullet and powder companies love to see me coming! )

quote:

And if you use a chronograph long enough on enough rifles, you will also find there are situations when Powder is "added" in some cartridges, that the Velocity will remain the same or go down a bit while the Pressure can increase substantially.

I agree with you here too.

Hey Jeff, Nice talking to you.

Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills.