An old timer once told me he was only interested in where the first shot goes, clean or dirty, in the kill zone. That was the only group that really ment something. While he loved tight shooting rifles, it was his actual "field" rifles that were most important to him.
What do you think ? I've noticed my first shot is the only one that really counts when shooting game.

hard luck

Hmmmm. Interesting. The old timer is probably right. But it makes me wonder. If you have a rifle that shoots 20" groups how can you be certain that the next "first shot" will go anywhere near the first "first shot"? Does that make sense?


Ray

quote:

If you have a rifle that shoots 20" groups how can you be certain that the next "first shot" will go anywhere near the first "first shot"? Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense.That is why the one shot group doesn't make sense unless your gun shoots every bullet into the same hole.

How about that weird test where you shoot one shot at multiple targets to see where the bullet impacts relative to the point of aim?

Some people have an evil barrel that prints the first shot away from the rest of the group.

quote:

Originally posted by stubblejumper:

quote:

If you have a rifle that shoots 20" groups how can you be certain that the next "first shot" will go anywhere near the first "first shot"? Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense.That is why the one shot group doesn't make sense unless your gun shoots every bullet into the same hole.

Personally I think one of you is hitting the cholla juice too hard and the other has gotten some real hard Canadian blend. I'm with the Old Timer. 20" group indeed. roger

Even with a rifle capable of 2" three shot groups the one shot group is not an accurate way to check the rifles point of impact.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by stubblejumper:

quote:

If you have a rifle that shoots 20" groups how can you be certain that the next "first shot" will go anywhere near the first "first shot"? Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense.That is why the one shot group doesn't make sense unless your gun shoots every bullet into the same hole.

Personally I think one of you is hitting the cholla juice too hard and the other has gotten some real hard Canadian blend. I'm with the Old Timer. 20" group indeed. roger

OK Roger, maybe 20" was an exaggeration. How about a rifle that shoots a 6" group? So I take it you don't check a rifle to see how well it groups? You shoot one shot and if it's where you want it you quit and go hunting?

Ray

80 year old one shot group guy couldn't get his one shot onto paper at 100. I boresighted and got him on. He shot one shot and cranked his scope knobs, shot one more time and cranked his knobs, after the third "one shot" group he was totally off the paper once again. He got pissed at me and told me "look what you have done" packed up and left.

Horse hockey, I want at least 5 of them in or near the same spot...I been known to miss a couple of shots before I connected...He who has not is full of BS IMO......

I think I met that 80 year old one shot guy once. He couldn't hit the paper so I stood behind him with binoculars. First shot, "You missed to the right". Cranked on knobs. Second shot, "you missed high". Cranked knobs. Third shot, "you missed high again. He turned and hollered at me, "I can't be missing high! You don't know how to spot shots!" So I left.

Ray

Ray:
Glad to see you back tonight full of piss and vineger.

The old coot is right. If you all reread the post, he knows about "tight" shooting rifles.
IF however his "hunten" rifles will CONSISTANTLY
shoot the first shot to the same place,(proven over time,) he probably doesn't mind the next shot (say) 1 1/2" away.

After extensive testing with my hunting rifles,
5 to 10 shot groups, I only need to fire one shot now and then to confirm zero.
A lot of us old coots aren't as long winded as me on explaining our shooting habits.
John L>

quote:

IF however his "hunten" rifles will CONSISTANTLY
shoot the first shot to the same place,(proven over time,) he probably doesn't mind the next shot (say) 1 1/2" away.

Using that theory if the first shot always impacted at exactly the same place,you could simply let the barrel cool before firing another shot.Then every shot would be the first shot and would go through the same hole for a group size of 0".If (more realistically) the gun shoots 1-1/2" three shot groups,what makes you think that the first shot will not be the one 1-1/2" away?

Experence.
JL

What I find is this is pushed mostly by people who are too cheap to buy extra ammo or to lazy to shoot their guns.

Mostly but not always.

I really think that the topic means that the point of impact from a cold barrel is very important. I record both that and the group. I also hunt with single shot rifles and know that repeater or not the first shot is usually the easiest and the only one needed.

If you keep track of the point of impact you will find that some rifles, with wood stocks in particular, will vary and others will not that much.

An AR member visited me at the range last year. He has hunted all over. He brought only one rifle and fired one shot at 100 yds. Then later after a nice visit he fired another one shot group and left.

quote:

Originally posted by hard luck:
An old timer once told me he was only interested in where the first shot goes, clean or dirty, in the kill zone. That was the only group that really ment something. While he loved tight shooting rifles, it was his actual "field" rifles that were most important to him. What do you think? I've noticed my first shot is the only one that really counts when shooting game.

Hey Hard Luck, Quite obvious the "old timer" you talked to both knew what he was talking about and has a lot more actual Hunting experience than some of the posts you've seen on this thread.

Anytime a person needs more than three shots to kill 99% of what we hunt, that person needs to STOP and go find out what is wrong with the cartridge, rifle or Trigger Yanker.

Nothing at all wrong with whatever number of shots a person wants to put in a Target. If they want 3, 5, 10, or 100, if it makes them happy then that is what they should shoot. Thinking that any additional shots beyond the first " 3 " is going to help them kill more Bears, Deer and Hogs is not something I agree with.
---

I work with 3-shot groups as I'm developing the Loads. If they shoot bad, I see no need to continue proving it to myself. If they shoot well, then they get reshot enough times that I have confidence in them. While developing loads, I clean the barrel between 6-9 shots and not with a worthless boresnake.

Once I find a Load that I'm happy with, I go to the "cumulative" 1-shot groups. Shoot and clean, shoot and clean.... Knowing where that initial shot will go from a cold, clean, lightly lubed barrel (using a known good load) is what matters to me.

But if anyone prefers dirty barrels and 5-100 shot groups, that is fine with me. If they stick with it long enough, they will learn.

Hot Core, I think you are are right and it makes sense. Remember he said Kill Zone which is good size on most game. Yes I do agree it must be tested over time and under different conditions. This old fellow rarely shoots a deer over 200 yds, most ar much much less. I kind of believe the guy as he has a reputation as one of the best hunters and shot in the county.

JAL, Savage 99, and the anti scout rifle guy understood what they read and posted correctly.

As far as shooting multi shot small groups ****I do. But only because it is enjoyable.

My scout hunting rifles are pressed to fire 3/4" groups at 50 yds with their 1 1/2 power scopes from the bench. I never shot a deer, elk or any other game from a bench. Probably close to half the game I've shot was off hand. When I hear and feel the rifle go off I am confident that the bullet will hit damn close to where the cross hairs were at that time.

The man from down under had it right; experience and I'll throw in practice. How many of you small group for hunting advocates stand up a whole bunch and shoot. Too busy making small groups with your hunting rifles?

From what I have seen in life, the fact that a rifle hasn't got MOA isn't the weakest link in the chain. The JERK on the trigger is. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Hard Luck:
... Remember he said Kill Zone which is good size on most game. .... This old fellow rarely shoots a deer over 200 yds, most ar much much less. I kind of believe the guy as he has a reputation as one of the best hunters and shot in the county....

Hey Hard Luck, I agree the kill zone is typically a fairly good size.

Most rifles made today will easily kill cleanly out to 300yds with a Randomly picked Load and Randomly picked bullet, by just centering the crosshair right behind the shoulder. But, it is possible to go with too light of a bullet for the task, or have the velocity too high for the specific Design Envelope.

Keeping his shots inside 200yds and knowing where the First Bullet will go, speaks well of his firearms knowledge and hunting ability.

There is a guy named "Howard" that might occasionally post on the GunSmith Board. He mentioned one time over on HA, when everyone was still going there, that "he likes to know the exact hair" his bullet will hit. Interesting comment which some folks will laugh at. His point was(and is) that when he does shoot, he wants to have confidence that the Bullet will impact exactly where he wants it to go at whatever distance the Game is from him.

Only way to get that confidence is with a fine Load, an accurate rifle and lots of Trigger Time. Or, I should say that is how it works for me.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
... How many of you small group for hunting advocates stand up a whole bunch and shoot. Too busy making small groups with your hunting rifles?...

Hey Roger, Count me in that HUGE group. About half my time at the Range is spent Off-Hand shooting in a Hasty Sling. Just mentioned being "given" 1000 - 150gr FN-FAL FMJs on another thread. They are more accurate in my 30cals than the FMJ Wins and Rems I've tried over a lot of years. Right inexpensive to shoot since they were FREE!

Dancing Soda cans at 100yds with a good old Marlin 880SS 22LR and an original Weaver 3-9x with the Range-Finder Reticle(2 horizontal wires) is quite a hoot. Then ease the cans on back and break out the centerfires. I do it as much as possible to try and keep my "focus and concentration" half way sharp. Age is not kind to the concentration, eyes and muscles.

And occasionally some nimrod will show up with a rifle that has the scope taped, glued, hose clamped or some such stuff, w-a-y out yonder on the barrel. Hard to maintain concentration and a steady crosshair alignment in Off-Hand when you are stifling back the chuckles. Do you think they just do it just out of pure meanness?

Bartche:
Here is one bench shooter who gets bored with the same routine over and over and shoots many many rounds from position during the year.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
What I find is this is pushed mostly by people who are too cheap to buy extra ammo or to lazy to shoot their guns.

Mostly but not always.

Maybe, but I fired over 800 shots to arrive at a particular bullet and load combo, to where I am now happy with a one shot group.

Now I might start five shot groups with another weight bullet/combo. Cripes, even then they have to prove themselves over time.
John L>

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:
Bartche:

Why do people spell my name wrong? Do you think they do it out of pure meaness?

And bouncing tin cans is a great sport.

When I was a little younger I use to shot this double man sized rock off hand. Than my buddy would shot the hole I made with my 6mm-.270 IMP from a bench that Fred Barnes had put up. Fred said he measured that rock to be a distance of 476 Yards from the bench. If my buddy missed than he had to stand and I got to sit.Once in a while we bounced beer cans accross the wash at about 100 yds or so. They always seemed to be there. roger

Bartsche:
I hit 7 out of the 8 keys correctly which is pretty good for me. When I'm shooting however when I only hit 7 out of 8 I too think it is total meaness on the part of the target which is doing it all on purpose.