Hi all,

I have a Ishapore 2A that I've done some modifications to and want to start reloading for. I'm looking for some pointers in the right direction before I get started, however.

Rifle has a 16" barrel (don't know the twist rate...whatever the stock barrels on the Ishy's have) which has been free-floated. Action has been epoxy bedded and a Williams rear peep sight has been added

Right now I'm getting roughly 2" (sometimes a little tighter) groups at 50 yards with store bought hunting ammo. I'd like to acheive the same results (or better) at 100 yards. I've got a ton of IMR 4064, but I'm also thinking of getting some Varget since it seems .308's really like that powder. I know this thing is never going to be a sniper rifle, but the length and weight of it make a superb bush gun, so I'd like some decent accuracy out to 100yds.

Anybody have load suggestions for a 16" barrel with either IMR 4064 or Varget? Looking for 2" groups or better at 100 yds. Any bullet type/weight...doesn't matter!

Thanks!

I have a compact ruger and a handi that have short barrels and both like 150 gr hornady interlocks with 46.5 gr of varget and factory crimp. They both shoot at or under 1 inch at 100yards.

ammoguide.com lists 46 loads for the .308Win using IMR-4064 powder in bullet weights from 110 grains to 250 grains by many different bullet makers. I am a member over there. I can't divulge the load specifics for liability reasons. A year-long scrip is about eighteen bucks. Grab yourself one and make so much info about reloading and cartridges available to yourself you won't believe it. Lots of really good stuff there...

Thanks for the info guys! Keep it coming!

Homebrewer, I checked out the site and it looks pretty good. I think I can spare $18.

4064 is about as good a powder for the .308 as you'll find. I doubt that playing around with other powders will significantly improve the accuracy of your Ishapore. You don't say what kind of front sight you have, but your sights could be the limiting factor in how tight your groups will be at 100 yards.

One caution in loading the .308: I have found that military brass (which is very good) accepts significantly less powder than the more capacious commercial brass. If you happen to be using military brass, back off to the "starting" loads in your Ishapore until you have proven higher loads safe.

Thanks for the tip. I have a mix of commercial and military brass, but I usually only use one type at a time.

I just had the smith move the original front sight back when he chopped the barrel, so it's nothing fancy. If you know of a better front sight, I'm all ears.

Someone told me that with a shorter barrel I might get better accuracy with heavier bullets. Any thoughts?

I've also been doing some reading on OCW and node theory and I seem to recall a reloading program that would let you enter in your powder, bullet weight and barrel length and give you a ballpark powder charge that would get the bullet out the barrel at the optimum time. Anybody know what program I'm talking about, or use/have it?

IMR 4064 and 165 or 168 gr. bullets has been the best for me in several 308s.

Don't discount some light cast loads either. Lyman lists three cast bullets from 1501g to 210g that are suitable for your Enfield, as well as the Arg. Mausers and Jap Type 99's.

Almost all cast rifle loads use a modest 10.0 to 12.5 grains of Red Dot; you can shoot for quite awhile with an 8 pound cannister!

quote:

Originally posted by asmith80:
I've also been doing some reading on OCW and node theory and I seem to recall a reloading program that would let you enter in your powder, bullet weight and barrel length and give you a ballpark powder charge that would get the bullet out the barrel at the optimum time. Anybody know what program I'm talking about, or use/have it?

There's several terrabytes (1000's of gigabytes) of threads on shooting forums about Optimum Charge Weight processes to get the bullet to leave the muzzle at some optimum point, typically at the upper or lower most point of its vibration swings. It's a lot of theory, most of which is based on assumptions on how barrel's vibrate based on the frequencies OCW believers think barrels vibrate at.

Problems with OCW are numerous.

First, nobody's ever put accelerometers on a barrel's muzzle connected to test equipment that also has sensors to show when the bullet exits at some point on the muzzle's vibration cycle. This is the only way anybody can prove OCW works.

Second, most folks believe barrels vibrate at a few thousand cycles per second based on sound waves traveling in steel near 18,000 feet per second. Barrel length's used in the formula because believers think that's how to calculate when the muzzle will be at the "perfect" point. It's based on the fact that sound travels down the barrel to the muzzle then back to the breech; how long that takes is easy to calculate and I think believers want the bullet to exit when the sound wave's back at the breech end. Truth is, barrels vibrate at their fundamental frequency such that the greatest bending to change muzzle axis direction is typically less than 100 cycles per second. For a 24 inch barrel, that sound wave takes about 1/5th of a millisecond to go from the cartridge to the muzzle and back to the cartridge. It takes a bit over 1 millisecond for most bullets to go from case mouth to the muzzle; there's several vibrations at the muzzle as the bullet goes down the barrel. That sound wave's gonna go all the way back to the back of the receiver before it goes back forward; the barreled receiver acts as one piece of steel and nowhere is this real dimension in the formula. If one does the grade school math, they'll learn that muzzle velocity spread has to be less than 3 fps for the bullet to exit at one of these high frequency barrel vibration's high or low point when its most stable. But it doesn't matter anyway because the greatest angular motion of the muzzle is happening at less than 100 cycles per second. There's a formula available at vibrationdata.com that'll calculate (with real mechanical engineering processes that are very accurate) what the main fundamental frequency is for a barrel after you've entered its dimensions. Go to http://www.vibrationdata.com/updates.htm and search for "rifle" and you'll find it.

Third, the best place in a barrel's whip cycle for bullets to exit is when the muzzle's on the up swing, not at the very top or bottom and never on the down swing. Bullets at the lower end of the muzzle velocity spread will leave at a bit higher angle and slower ones at a lower angle. This is called positive compensation and bullets tend to strike the same point of aim.

Fourth, barrel length is only 1/3rd of the vibration determinates. For a given tapered bar of steel, how much metal's removed by boring, rifling and chambering effects its mechanical properties. Two equal length blanks, one bored and chambered for the .22 Hornet and the other made for the .375 H&H Mag. will have different fundamental frequencies it vibrates at. For a given cartridge, barrels of the same length that are thinner will vibrate at a lower frequency than a thicker one; they're stiffer.

Just read Bart's post, and I do not see a whole lot in it that I agree with. Don't know Bart, so the only real reason I disagree is because he is pretty much all wrong.

Best of luck to you folks.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
IMR 4064 and 165 or 168 gr. bullets has been the best for me in several 308s.

+1, I've been using that combination since 1981.

varget and 165s star at about 43 grns and work up

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Just read Bart's post, and I do not see a whole lot in it that I agree with. Don't know Bart, so the only real reason I disagree is because he is pretty much all wrong.

Best of luck to you folks.

Prove it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bart B.:
Prove it.

Don't need to prove a thing. Any beginner Rookie can see through all your post as if you really have no clue at all about Reloading. Those Twilight Zone concepts may fly where ever you normally post, but I'd suspect even Bobby Tomek could see through the total ignorance.

Hot Core, your remark about my post on barrel vibrations and whipping:

quote:

Any beginner Rookie can see through all your post as if you really have no clue at all about Reloading.

Reloading has nothing to do with it. A given barrel behaves the same way whether it's shooting new factory ammo or reloads; it can't tell the difference. Barrel whipping, harmonics, sound pressure waves traveling in one, only requires some simple understanding of grade school math regarding rate-time-distance foumulas and basic knowledge of metal properties. If you've none of these resources and continue your present level of reasoning, you'll be laughed at by those who do. And you'll be cheered on by others who don't.

Could you please point out one detail that sticks out as something wrong?

quote:

Originally posted by Bart B.:
First, nobody's ever put accelerometers on a barrel's muzzle connected to test equipment that also has sensors to show when the bullet exits at some point on the muzzle's vibration cycle. This is the only way anybody can prove OCW works.

Hey Bart,While I agree that OCW (by rookiegreen) is full of beans, the never improved upon Creighton Audette Load Development Method(plagerized and bastardized by rookiegreen) can not be beaten for finding out about a Load using the least amount of components in the shortest amount of time.

But for your question, acccelerometers are certainly not needed. Even thinking about using them to loacte the "Best Harmonic Node" is Twilight Zone thinking when the way to determine it is so simple. There is absolutely no need for accelerometers to prove if a particular Reloading Method is any good or not.

quote:

Second, most folks believe barrels vibrate at a few thousand cycles per second based on sound waves traveling in steel near 18,000 feet per second.

Sound waves??? Where ever you went to school certainly didn't include Engineering Classes. If they "claimed" they were, the school should be shut down, teachers shot and all the grades ever given expunged.

quote:

Barrel length's used in the formula because believers think that's how to calculate when the muzzle will be at the "perfect" point. It's based on the fact that sound travels down the barrel to the muzzle then back to the breech; how long that takes is easy to calculate and I think believers want the bullet to exit when the sound wave's back at the breech end. Truth is, barrels vibrate at their fundamental frequency such that the greatest bending to change muzzle axis direction is typically less than 100 cycles per second. For a 24 inch barrel, that sound wave takes about 1/5th of a millisecond to go from the cartridge to the muzzle and back to the cartridge. It takes a bit over 1 millisecond for most bullets to go from case mouth to the muzzle; there's several vibrations at the muzzle as the bullet goes down the barrel. That sound wave's gonna go all the way back to the back of the receiver before it goes back forward; the barreled receiver acts as one piece of steel and nowhere is this real dimension in the formula. If one does the grade school math, they'll learn that muzzle velocity spread has to be less than 3 fps for the bullet to exit at one of these high frequency barrel vibration's high or low point when its most stable. But it doesn't matter anyway because the greatest angular motion of the muzzle is happening at less than 100 cycles per second. There's a formula available at vibrationdata.com that'll calculate (with real mechanical engineering processes that are very accurate) what the main fundamental frequency is for a barrel after you've entered its dimensions. Go to http://www.vibrationdata.com/updates.htm and search for "rifle" and you'll find it.

There is way too much bologna in that mess to even dignify with any response besides

quote:

Third, the best place in a barrel's whip cycle for bullets to exit is when the muzzle's on the up swing, not at the very top or bottom and never on the down swing. Bullets at the lower end of the muzzle velocity spread will leave at a bit higher angle and slower ones at a lower angle. This is called positive compensation and bullets tend to strike the same point of aim.

Totally WRONG!!! You must be posting this as a joke to see who all will call you on it.

Pitiful!!!

Hot Core, consider the following:

http://www.varmintal.com/apres.htm

http://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm

and especially

http://www.varmintal.com/atune.htm

Find an Englishman who's shot fullbore matches in Great Britian about the spark photograph tests they did decades ago proving the SMLE .303's and those converted to 7.62 NATO shot more accurate at long range than Mauser actioned rifles with their arsenal ammo with huge muzzle velocity spreads. Bullets from SMLE's left at a better part of the barrel's upswing to compensate for the velocity spread.

I'll prove why rimless bottleneck cases are jammed into the chamber shoulder centering them when they're fired (with both push and controlled feed actions) as well as how they're positioned in the chamber at a later time when I think you're up to understanding it.

The Nosler Reloading Manual has many good loads for the 308 - best I've seen anywhere.

Bart, The problem is not in what you are reading, it is your comprehension of what it means. You are obviously in the deep end of the pool trying to rationalize events, where you need to be in the wading pool. We had another guy like you here named alf. He was able to copy all kinds of info about the processes, but never had a clue about how they worked and what was really going on.

It really does not matter to me what you think. The thing that bothers me is that some of the Beginners might actually get hoodooed into believing all these "totally WRONG" things you believe in.

Were you taught to reload by Bobby Tomek or teanscum?

4064 is a good powder for the .308, and if you have it on hand I wouldn't buy anything else untill you had exhausted the possibilities with it first. Hard to go wrong with 4064 and 165's. Work up and I'll bet you find something good up around the top end.

Reviving an old thread here with a little update.

Finally got out to test some of the loads I've got worked up to see what worked. I'm starting with 180 gr. bullets since I had a box of 100 sitting around. I used Hornady's manual since it listed about 5 different loads to try with 180 gr. bullets and IMR 4064. Loads ranged from 34 gr. to 41.3.

With one exception I couldn't seem to get a consistent group with any of them. Some ranged from over 2" to the 41.3 load that was a vertical string 3" long, which was a little weird. The one exception was 35.8 gr. which shot low (at first I thought I was missing the target completely) but managed to put 5 shots into about 1 3/4" at 50 yards.

Next step is to load up some more 35.8 gr. loads to try and replicate the group and also try some more bullet weights before I move on to another powder. Sounds like lots of people are having good luck with 165's and I've still got some 150's so those'll be the next test subjects. I'll post another update (hopefully sooner than another 6 months)

quote:

Originally posted by homebrewer:
ammoguide.com lists 46 loads for the .308Win using IMR-4064 powder in bullet weights from 110 grains to 250 grains by many different bullet makers. I am a member over there. I can't divulge the load specifics for liability reasons. A year-long scrip is about eighteen bucks. Grab yourself one and make so much info about reloading and cartridges available to yourself you won't believe it. Lots of really good stuff there...

Homebrew, I looked over Ammoguide and it is great looking site so i dropped $18 and subscribed. Thanks for the tip.

asmith80,
The 2A is a rear locking action.Those rifles were converted from 303B to 7.62 X 51.
Just be a little careful with pressure as modern 308's can withstand a hell of a lot more than the Enfield actions.
I used Varget in my No4 mk1 conversion with 155gn Sierras, but I would have to go to my notes for the load.
sometimes the 147gn projectiles shoot rather well in these conversions.
Start low with your load development and work up cautiously.
robz

Thanks for the warning robz. I too was a little leery of getting into the higher pressures, so I was checking for split cases and popped primers the whole time. No signs of anything dangerous, but I'll be keeping a watch

quote:

Originally posted by asmith80:
Hi all,

I have a Ishapore 2A that I've done some modifications to and want to start reloading for. I'm looking for some pointers in the right direction before I get started, however.

Rifle has a 16" barrel (don't know the twist rate...whatever the stock barrels on the Ishy's have) which has been free-floated. Action has been epoxy bedded and a Williams rear peep sight has been added

Right now I'm getting roughly 2" (sometimes a little tighter) groups at 50 yards with store bought hunting ammo. I'd like to acheive the same results (or better) at 100 yards. I've got a ton of IMR 4064, but I'm also thinking of getting some Varget since it seems .308's really like that powder. I know this thing is never going to be a sniper rifle, but the length and weight of it make a superb bush gun, so I'd like some decent accuracy out to 100yds.

Anybody have load suggestions for a 16" barrel with either IMR 4064 or Varget? Looking for 2" groups or better at 100 yds. Any bullet type/weight...doesn't matter!

Thanks!

Holy Sh!+ there's a lot of engineering and physics involved with this one. I hope nobody laughs me out of the forum for my simplistic and 2 cent input!? Anyway, I would think that since your barrel is shorter you would be best suited with a powder that burns a bit faster than what you may have been using. Also, (not knowing your twist rate) the bigger bullets do best with at least 2 full revolutions, therefore if your shortened barrel bares that rate you should do great with 168 to 190 grain bullets. If not, perhaps it would be best to start with lighter bullets and work your way up finding what your barrel spits best.

Good luck..

I checked my notes and also checked with a couple of other sensible reloaders who shoot 308 Enfields and the load is 44 gn of Varget , win brass and 155 sierra matchking, but these are in stndard length barrels
rob

I am going to make it simple:

308 w/Broughton 28" 1/12 twist barrel:

Shooting 155.5 Bergers, 44.9gr Varget, CCI primer, Lapua brass works for me!

Shooting 175gr Bergers, 42.6gr Varget, CCI primer, Lapua brass again works for me!

All bullets were set ON the lands!

OK so I went back to the range with a few more test subjects. I tried 165 gr. bullets this time and also retried the 35.8 load with the 180gr. bullets that seemed to work last time.

Upshot is: 35.8 gr. 4064 and 180gr. bullets did not work when I tested them the second time. Shots were all over the place at 50yds and I managed to hit the paper a handfull of times at 100.

I had better luck with 165gr. bullets. 5 loads again. 38gr. gave me a nice group at just under 2" at 50 yds, but the real winner was 42.5 gr. 4064. That one gave me a 3 shot group of 1" with two of the holes touching at 50 yds. Unfortunately I only had three more shots after that to double check the load and I flinched on one of the shots throwing off the group, but the two I didn't flinch on were about 1/2" apart, So I'm reasonably confident that if it hadn't been for user error I could have reproduced the group.

Next step will to be load up some more 42.5's to try again at 50 and then 100 yds. I'll also try out some loads of 4064 with 150gr. bullets just for completness sake, and maybe try out some IMR 3031 just to see if I can get some similar results with a powder that might not leave so much residue in the barrel.

All in all tho, I think I've hit on a good combination of bullet and powder for the gun. Those of you that recommended 165 gr. bullets...thanks! I wouldn't have even tried those out if not for the suggestions

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Just read Bart's post, and I do not see a whole lot in it that I agree with. Don't know Bart, so the only real reason I disagree is because he is pretty much all wrong.

Best of luck to you folks.

You disagree with Bobbitt, Howell, Waters, Atkinson when they are correct.

WTF do you know, you are a hack.

quote:

Originally posted by BECoole:
You disagree with Bobbitt, Howell, Waters, Atkinson when they are correct. ...

Don't know Bobbitt, so it would be impossible to disagree with him. So, it looks like you have started off proving yourself to be a Lier.

Do know howl and he is a fool. Anyone that has ever "tried" to discuss anything concerning Reloading with him could easily verify that.

I do not believe I've ever disagreed with Ken Waters. He is one of the Gurus of Reloading that I do respect.

Mr. Ray Atkinson is WRONG about using weenie scopes and Bore Snakes. Otherwise, I do not remember disagreeing with him.

And becoole is the north end of a south bound horse - for 100% sure. If you took your Reloading knowledge and poured it into a glass beaker, the quantity would be invisible. Just that simple.

Typical Hot Core. Should be Hot Air

You have absolutely no qualifications to speak beyond the simplest of reloading subjects. You can Google Mr. Bobbitt (Bart B.) yourself. I can assure you that his qualifications to speak on the subject are sterling. Unlike you, who probably hasn't shot in any competition beyond beyond popgun.

165-168 seems to be the happy bullet weight for most 308 shooters. Powder charge varies from rifle to rifle and shooter to shooter...

Myself personally im shooting an older Remington 700 BDL rifle. 21" Barrel, Its bone stock in trim with only an upgraded stock. With a TASCO world class scope mounted on some crap see-thru rings shooting Federal Premium 165gr Trophy bonded bullets. I can get 1/2 MOA at 100 yrds. And this is with a rifle that is almost 20 years old now.

So to me it sounds like with that MOA you have an issue that is not round related. Possibly your optics are slightly loose? I had this happen to me at one time with my 308 and it played havoc with my mind for about 3 weeks. Once I removed the scope thinking my scope was bad, I found out my rings were loose.

This year I plan on upgrading optics to a Leupold VX-II or III with better rings. some smith work to my trigger and a good hand load should net me some very tight groups.