How do the Redding Competition Neck Sizing Dies compare to the Type S dies in terms of concentricity?
After reading several threads here and on other forums, the Type S dies appear to introduce a good deal of runout. Are the Forster bushing bump dies a less expensive alternative to the Redding?

quote:

Originally posted by Rammag:
After reading several threads here and on other forums, the Type S dies appear to introduce a good deal of runout.

That has also been my experience.

- mike

Runout- All 3 use bushings. How would/could one be different from the other? Redding comp only neck sizes. Type S can be had FLRS or Neck only. The Forster bushing bump dies will neck size and push the shoulder back a few .001" What may make the difference is how much you are sizing down the neck with the bushing. Read Reddings tech info before you buy.

It ain't the question but I prefer Lee's Collet neck sizers to any bushing type.

quote:

Originally posted by 243winxb:
Runout- All 3 use bushings. How would/could one be different from the other?

As you will know from experience with both die types, the Competition series uses a case body supporting sleeve, the S-Type die does not.

The S-type dies come with an expander, somewhat surprisingly for a die using bushings to control the amount of neck sizing. Expanders are always suspect when it comes to runout, so it is probably a good idea to get rid of the darned things and use bushings dimensioned for sizing without.

- mike

Is it necessary or recommended to neck turn when using a bushing die?

I don't neck turn, but I choose my bushings for a bit of extra neck tension. If I go as low (approx .001"), as Redding suggests, I get trouble with varying neck tension, so I go with, say, .003" for low recoil/target type calibers and .004" for hunting calibers.

-mike

Rammag, The Redding Type S bushing die HAS THE OPTION TO USE OR NOT USE AN EXPANDER, this OPTION comes with BOTH the flrs or neck die. You DO Not Have to Neck turn the brass to use a bushing die. I use it both ways for different rifles. The RUNOUT (if you didnt read Redding website)is caused ( if i remember correctly) by sizing the neck down more that .008" to .010" in one operation.

The most accurate die would be the Type-S FLRS unit. The whole case body is held and sized as the bushing does its work. We want everything the same if possible, so FLRS ever loading does this. Case life is not affected at all in the body area of the brass as long as you control your shoulder bump when FLRSing. In loading 243win, i find sizing about 1/2 of the neck will give best accuracy. This lets the unsided neck area expand to the chamber after 2 or 3 firing, centering the round in the chamber. Very accurate. Redding may custom make you a Type-S flrs die to fit your fired brass. Check website. Hope this helps.

quote:

Originally posted by 243winxb:
Rammag, The Redding Type S bushing die HAS THE OPTION TO USE OR NOT USE AN EXPANDER, this OPTION comes with BOTH the flrs or neck die. You DO Not Have to Neck turn the brass to use a bushing die. I use it both ways for different rifles. The RUNOUT (if you didnt read Redding website)is caused ( if i remember correctly) by sizing the neck down more that .008" to .010" in one operation.

Will the Type S FL die produce run out similar to a standard FL when reducing the neck down by an equal amount? Since most cases have a taper (223 and 308 in my case) isn't the neck mostly sized before the body contacts the die?

If reducing the neck by more than 0.008" - 0.010", can the reduction be done in say two stages and still maintain low run out?

quote:

Originally posted by Rammag:

quote:

Originally posted by 243winxb:
Rammag, The Redding Type S bushing die HAS THE OPTION TO USE OR NOT USE AN EXPANDER, this OPTION comes with BOTH the flrs or neck die. You DO Not Have to Neck turn the brass to use a bushing die. I use it both ways for different rifles. The RUNOUT (if you didnt read Redding website)is caused ( if i remember correctly) by sizing the neck down more that .008" to .010" in one operation.

Will the Type S FL die produce run out similar to a standard FL when reducing the neck down by an equal amount? Since most cases have a taper (223 and 308 in my case) isn't the neck mostly sized before the body contacts the die?

If reducing the neck by more than 0.008" - 0.010", can the reduction be done in say two stages and still maintain low run out?

Runout should be less when not using an expander. Your right, the taper of the case does come into play with S die. The bushing finds its own center on the neck as it floats. Yes,two stages reduce the neck by using 2 bushings. Keep in mind the Competition neck sizing die may not be a perfect fit to your fired brass. I have not used the Competition model. A standard FL die sizes the neck area down way more than need. This does not happen with bushing. You size just the right amount. Less working of the brass.

Redding Concentricity & Bushing Dies

From tests we have conducted, we have learned that selecting the correct bushing is the most important factor in producing sized case necks that have good concentricity with the case body. Our tests showed that case neck concentricity is directly proportional to bushing size. In other words, as you size case necks with progressively smaller bushings, the concentricity gets progressively worse.

Our current recommendation, is to select a bushing that is .001" smaller than the loaded cartridge neck diameter. For example, if the neck diameter of your loaded cartridges is .248", start with a .247" bushing. We've had to change our initial recommendation, because the majority of cartridge cases manufactured today have neck walls near the minimum SAAMI thickness. (See our "Bushing Selection" newsletter for more info.)

To create precision reloads, you must start with cases of good quality. They should all be from the same manufacturer and lot number. A good measure of case quality is how uniform the neck wall thickness is. Cases with uniform neck wall thickness, will be of uniform thickness all the way to the base. This is important for accuracy, as the cases will expand uniformly upon firing, and contract uniformly when sized. Neck turning helps, but it's only a partial cure, as you can't turn the case wall all the way to the base. The Redding Case Neck Gauge is the preferred instrument for checking neck wall thickness and uniformity. Also note that the concentricity of a fired case only indicates how concentric your firearm's chamber is. It provides you with little or no information on the quality of the cases you're using.

Other factors that can improve concentricity:

• Lube case necks, even with TiN coated bushings.

• Partial size case necks. Sizing 1/2 or 3/4 of the neck seems to be the most popular.

• Try flipping the bushing over. We like to install them with the letters down to start with.

• Trim cases mouths square so they will enter the bushing straight. Don't forget to chamfer the case mouth, inside and out. This is very important as it eases the entry of the case mouth into the bushing, and the bullet into the case mouth.

• Anneal case necks. Cases that have been fired many times work harden and this causes excessive spring-back of the case necks.

Concentricity Problems a.k.a Neck Runout
With Bottleneck Cases

The concentricity, or neck runout, of loaded cartridges is an important consideration for reloaders and especially the varmint or target shooter.

There are many factors that can cause or contribute to neck runout during the reloading process and many reloaders who have not dealt with the problem before quickly blame the sizing or seating die.

While the dies may be at fault or have a contributing defect, modern CNC machinery and reamers that cut the body, shoulder, and neck simultaneously make such occurrences rare. Most problems are related to the brass itself and its uniformity both in terms of hardness and thickness and how much it is being stressed in the reloading process.

An entire book can be devoted to this subject, but the amount of stress the brass is subjected to can be your key to finding a problem. If you "feel" any difficulty and /or heavy resistance when resizing your cases this can be a telltale clue.

Excessive difficulty while resizing can indicate any of the following: Poor choice of case lube, failing to clean the die and/or brass, faulty polish inside die, chamber large or at maximum S.A.A.M.I. spec resulting in excessive brass resizing. A large neck diameter in the chamber combined with brass that is thin or excessively turned can cause crooked necks in a hurry. The more brass has to be moved the more its residual memory takes over.

Resistance to pulling your cases over the size button can indicate problems. A "squawk" says "shame on you", you forgot to brush the residue out of the necks. A hard drag can indicate that the top of the size button is not smooth. Don't be afraid to polish the top radius with #600 wet paper, but don't reduce the outside diameter or you can create an excessive bullet fit. Carbide size buttons are now an option also; they have a lower coeffecient of friction.

We have conducted many tests over the years on the various factors contributing to concentricity problems with bottleneck cases. We have repeatedly found a definite correlation between the uniformity of the brass (or lack of it) and the resulting concentricity of the neck to the body of the case.

An interesting experiment also revealed that neck turning of brass that was intentionally sorted as non-uniform, showed little or no concentricity improvement when used in standard S.A.A.M.I. spec chambers. Conversely brass that was sorted and selected for uniformity remained uniform and concentric with or without a neck turning operation.

Another interesting observation can be found in the examination of fired cases that have crooked necks "as fired" right out of the chamber. Usually the chamber is being blamed for the problem.

Looking at the primers under magnification you can usually find a telltale machining mark or other blemish that was imprinted from the bolt face. This will give you an index mark with reference to the chamber. Mark this index mark on the cases with a felt tip marker and go about checking the concentricity. If the runout is random to your index marks the problem is not the chamber. Further examination will show the same correlation with the good and bad brass.

Note that to this point we have not talked about seating dies. That is because 98% of all concentricity problems exist in the brass prior to bullet seating.

Keep in mind that no seating die ever made will correct problems. The best you can do is to obtain a quality seating die that does not add any.

UPDATE: Feb. '96

Redding has now introduced neck sizing dies that use interchangeable sizing bushings in .001" increments. These dies can help reduce overworking of the brass and the resulting loss of concentricity.