Co-worker wants me to reload for him...

07 February 2002, 03:50

<monyhunter>

An older guy at work came up to me the other day and wants me to reload for him. He is a very experienced hunter, but has no desire to learn how to reload. He said he would be willing to pay me for my work. Let me know what you pros think about this so far.

He has three Remington guns:

300 rem ultra mag
7mm rem mag
.280 rem

The 300 RUM he will be using this next fall for moose in Alaska for sure. I recommend he use the 180 Barnes X with the XLC coating.

For the other two guns he will be shooting cow elk and deer. I have had very good luck with the SST so far and I recommend the 139 SST for the .280. Since logically he will be using the 7mm rem mag for his elk hunting, I think the 150 Partition would fit the bill nicely.

As far as powders go I was thinking of going with a standard of Reloader 22 for all three. If the gun/powder/bullet work for all three guns, then I can just get an 5# keg for all three.

I also wonder how much I should charge him for all of this. He wants to have 500 rounds for each gun, total will be over 1500 rounds after development. That adds up to a lot of work on my part, but I want to be fair, not to mention it is fun for me to reload.

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Monyhunter

07 February 2002, 04:04

Curtis_Lemay

how about $1 per round

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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.

07 February 2002, 04:16

GeorgeS

Mony,
What are the liability laws like in Idaho? If he is killed or maimed due to a 'problem' with your handloads, you may have legal problems.

If a simple Waiver of Liability agreement is sufficient to protect you, charge him about 65-75% of the cost of factory ammo.

He'll still get a deal, you'll make some cash, and hopefully you'll both be satisfied.

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

07 February 2002, 04:17

Hot Core

Hey monyhunter, If you are really determined to do this, then charge him enough to cover the cost of a separate "Liability Insurance Policy" just in case he gets some unknown trash in his barrel and fires one of your reloads.

Reloading for someone else is just not a good idea!

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

07 February 2002, 04:46

<Matt_G>

I agree with what Hot Core said. At the least, look into liability insurance. Even if he blew up a gun due to a problem with said gun he would probably try to pin the blame on you and your reloads. You would be looking at the lawsuit from hell.

Look at worse case scenario. His gun blows up and kills him. He signed a liability waiver. Wife goes to a lawyer saying she didn't sign one, lawyer and judge agree and you still get sued for everything your worth.

I personally wouldn't touch it with a 10' pole. Just not worth the risk IMHO.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

07 February 2002, 04:50

Zero Drift

Ditto the liability exposure and the need for a serious insurance policy! Taking on this "favor" does pose some concerns. If something should happen, everyone would be looking at you. Even if it was due to your friend's negligence. With 1500 rounds and charging for your services, you are blurring the lines between a recreational reloader and a commercial operation.

I have had a few people ask me to reload for them. I did so free of charge and with them watching my every step. All loads were very safe loads and I inspected and sometimes cleaned their gun first. As Hot Core stated, it is not a great idea to reload for other folks. On the other hand - as long as nothing bad happens, it is a brilliant idea.

This is a big project in any event. Your approach to load development seems to be spot on. You may want to consider a cost plus basis. Calculate the insurance policy cost, component cost, and then add the cost for your time. As George stated, you should be in the 75% price range for factory ammo.

07 February 2002, 04:59

ricciardelli

You will need liability insurance, and you will also need a manufacturer's FFL.

Not to mention a federal and state tax number, and a business license.

07 February 2002, 06:20

Stonecreek

Someone had a similr question a couple of months ago, only in his case, the friend wanted to "save money". My advice was that this was impractical and a poor motive.

Your friend, on the other hand, seems to want to shoot custom ammunition tailored to his guns. If it were my friend, I would try to accomodate him, but to protect yourself from any number of potential downsides do it this way:

1. Accept no money from him.

2. Have him buy all of the componets. Provide none of them from your own stock.

3. Fire all work-up loads yourself, as well as several of any load you settle on as a "production load". Have him also fire and approve of the production loads.

4. Have him write you a letter thanking you for the "favor" he asked you for in helping him in loading HIS ammunition and telling you that he's really proud of his ammunition and confident in it after having shot a number of rounds in each gun.

5. If he wants to compensate you, he can give you some extra componets.

07 February 2002, 06:26

dan belisle

I agree with Stonecreek. Once you accept money for this, you are a business, with all the liabilities that entails. Favours? Sure, he can help. But anything past that puts a lot on the line. As for loading for other people's guns, I've done it quite a few times. They bring me the gun, tell me what they're hunting, accept my recommendations, and help with the whole process. FWIW - Dan

07 February 2002, 06:38

Dutch

I agree. It's all fun and games until the lawyers and the BATF get involved....... Have him buy the components, and have him assemble the loads himself.

Just make sure he buys ENOUGH supplies (hint, hint).

I only load for my father-in-law, and even then he's watches me load his stuff. Every run, I end up with extra 55 gr B-tips, 4064, 7828, and primers. Somehow there's never any of those things left by the time he needs another batch.......... FWIW, Dutch.

07 February 2002, 06:43

<monyhunter>

Boy, after reading all your posts I don't think I want anything to do with this "project". I am going to talk to this person and see what can be arranged to limit the liability. I wonder if he still wants to go through with it after I tell him all of these things. I also plan on talking to him about setting up his own reloading stuff and I can just "help" him get going.

Great advice all of you. Thank you very much.

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Monyhunter

07 February 2002, 07:43

CGB

Life is too short for this! I have done it once or twice but never again. Forgetting the liability issues for a minute, the only words you will ever hear from your 'friend' are the ones describing the big one that got away because of your lousy reloads.
C.G.B.

07 February 2002, 08:04

RSY

Buy him some Hornady factory loads, Custom Ammo or Light Magnum, and be done with it. If my wife knew how well these shot in my rifles, she'd make me sell all my equipment.

RSY

07 February 2002, 10:00

Dutch

RSY, those are viscious, unsubstantiated, baseless, malicious, anti-gun propaganda rumors. Just ask my wife.

Dutch.

07 February 2002, 10:12

beemanbeme

its not worth it. Invite him over and tell him you will "help" him reload for himself. If its not worth his time, its not worth yours.

07 February 2002, 10:29

Nitroman

Ditto, maybe if he was my brother but...nowadays things are just too crazy.

07 February 2002, 10:40

Eddie

Over the years I've loaded for three people. I never charged anything and they purchased the components. All three I would trust to watch my six. All others need not apply.

Eddie

07 February 2002, 12:38

RJS

I like to keep my business and pleasure separate, if something goes wrong you could:

a. be subjected to his criticism at work
b. be sued
c. lose your job, it happens, kinda like sex with a coworker
d. all of the above

I don't know about you but my life is crazy enough without these types of problems. If he can afford to pay you he can afford to buy his own setup and learn or is he saying his time is more valuable than yours, in a roundabout way of course.

RJS

07 February 2002, 13:36

<Abe Normal>

No matter how you care to dissect it, reloading for someone else is a bad idea! You are putting yourself in a position that you MUST do everything 100% correctly or the resulting problems/troubles are 100% your fault! Can you guarantee that every cartridge you load will be perfect? I know I sure can not!

So, unless you are willing to do this as a properly licensed and insured business, itï¿½s time to take two aspirin and think of something else!
In short you are gambling your freedom, your right to own firearms and your financial future on this venture.

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Abe

If everyone thought like me, I'd be a damn fool to think any differently!

07 February 2002, 15:55

<Shotone>

Last I read, it's against the law for a person to "Manufacture" ammunition for anyone, whether you take money for it, or not, without the proper licensing. The way around it is for your friend to buy all the components and to help you with the reloading. The liability of it has been well covered.

07 February 2002, 17:02

500grains

I only load for very close friends, and then on rare occasion. Suggest he obtain factory ammo.

07 February 2002, 18:01

<Don Martin29>

I used to do it but not any more for the above reasons.

If he stumbles and gets some mud in his bbl and the gun blows you will become a "also named".

It's too bad.

07 February 2002, 19:12

<Slamhound>

I do have a real close friend i wouldn't hesitate to reload for IF i had the time... always a good excuse! And luckily my brother-in-law has a phobia about all handloaded ammo [he thinks the ammo companies have some sort of 'magic wand' they wave over their ammo to insure its safety] so i've never had that problem to deal with. Basically i can produce ammo i have 100% confidence in that i wouldn't hesitate to 'distribute' BUT IMO it's not worth the hassle so nobody [but me] can possibly afford any of my ammo! [additionally- a personal 'policy' i've always had is nobody but ME so much as touches any of my loading equipment (for 'safety' reasons) so that pretty much nixes that option right off the bat, as well]. Between those two 'excuses' i've never had to supply ammo or equipment access- which works for me...

07 February 2002, 19:23

JerryO

quote:
Originally posted by monyhunter:
An older guy at work came up to me the other day and wants me to reload for him. He is a very experienced hunter, but has no desire to learn how to reload. He said he would be willing to pay me for my work. Let me know what you pros think about this so far.

This is really a no brainer.

Now that premium ammo is available. Just help him pick ammo with suitable bullets and spend some time with him at the range shooting his ammo in his toys.

You can't possibly be more effecient than the big factorys. If he doesn't want to play with reloading, he should just shoot factory stuff.

By the way, do figure the cost of reloading. He will want premium bullets ($45 per box of 50), new cases ($12.50/50 in .280 $$$$ for the ultramag), powder & primer ($10/50 for .280, $20 for ultra mag).

That's about $1.40 per round in components. add your time and figure about 1 hour per 50 reloading plus that much time on misc tasks. Are you to test and select the best loads? Use the same wage per hour you get at work (and don't forget benefits like insurance and retirement). At $25/hour you could have another $50 per 50 rounds.

Another thing to consider, I have read of some guy (company) which does custom reloading. Send the rifle and they will work up and test loads, then make custom ammo from their records as requested.

Sounds like this old guy is just pulling your leg and trying to make you admit that reloading doesn't pay. It doesn't if you want premium ammo. But I get a lot of plinking rounds at good prices by reuseing the brass and shooting bulk bullets.

JerryO

07 February 2002, 19:42

<MAKATAK>

Hey, Monyhunter. Tell me when you do this so I can rat you out to big brother and make ME some BIG BREAD.

It is a felony now days to manufacuter ammunition and sell it without the proper licenses and Liability Insurance, you can't trust anyone when money is at stake, steak, and if the old boy is too cheap to spend a few bucks on ammo I wouldn't trust him either.

Every one I know wants me to load for them. I tell them I don't loan my pickup, my guns, my ex-wife, my kids or grand kids and I sure don't reload for anyone, unless you want to lend me your wife while you're out shooting some reloads I happen to leave lying around that just happen to be the right caliber and bullet weight you usually shoot.

The variables in this game are just too numerous to take on any more. We live in Litigious Society USA. You're messing with the Ammo makers, the Lawyers, the Insurance people, the BATF, the Anti's, the FBI, the Military, the Transportation dept, ALL cops and robbers, the NRA, the Rifle manufacturers, THE Spouse and children if something should happen, and YOUR family if something should happen and you though you were just gonna make a few bucks and help an old man out, not to make too much of a point of it.

All I can say is "DON'T DO IT, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT DOING IT, GET OUT OF THIS HALLUCINATION, STOP SNIFFING GUNPOWDER, GO HOME AND REVIVE YOURSELF, RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN."!!!!! :O

08 February 2002, 09:04

Socrates

To put one more spin on it.

One could say that reloading ammunition is an ultra-hazardous activity. That if anything occurs, thanks to your poor product, you are liable. I don't care what you contract to to limit liability, it will not hold up in court.

I reloaded a long time ago, for friends that
I would, and did, trust with my life.

I think that's a good standard for your reloading situation.

How well do you know this guy???

Anyway, that said, check your local laws, and federal laws. Ammunition manufacturing
is probably more regulated then you want to know...

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

[This message has been edited by Socrates (edited 02-07-2002).]

07 February 2002, 23:40

<ChuckD>

I won't even reload for my brother! I still remember the 20 yr old pick-up truck I sold him at the same price the local dealer offered for it outright. 6 months later the carburator developed problems, and you would have thought I somehow caused the problem, And should share in the repair cost. (he sold the rig 11 years later for 1.5 times more than he paid) I no longer do ANY business with family or friends. I wouldn't, were I you------

08 February 2002, 03:37

Recono

quote:
Originally posted by RSY:
Buy him some Hornady factory loads, Custom Ammo or Light Magnum, and be done with it. If my wife knew how well these shot in my rifles, she'd make me sell all my equipment.

Wife? If I had known how well Hdy Light Mag was going to shoot in my 7mm-08, I wouldn't have bought the equipment!

08 February 2002, 03:43

Recono

quote:
Originally posted by MAKATAK:
Hey, Monyhunter. Tell me when you do this so I can rat you out to big brother and make ME some BIG BREAD.
It is a felony now days to manufacuter ammunition and sell it without the proper licenses and Liability Insurance, you can't trust anyone when money is at stake, steak, and if the old boy is too cheap to spend a few bucks on ammo I wouldn't trust him either.
Every one I know wants me to load for them. I tell them I don't loan my pickup, my guns, my ex-wife, my kids or grand kids and I sure don't reload for anyone, unless you want to lend me your wife while you're out shooting some reloads I happen to leave lying around that just happen to be the right caliber and bullet weight you usually shoot.
The variables in this game are just too numerous to take on any more. We live in Litigious Society USA. You're messing with the Ammo makers, the Lawyers, the Insurance people, the BATF, the Anti's, the FBI, the Military, the Transportation dept, ALL cops and robbers, the NRA, the Rifle manufacturers, THE Spouse and children if something should happen, and YOUR family if something should happen and you though you were just gonna make a few bucks and help an old man out, not to make too much of a point of it.
All I can say is "DON'T DO IT, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT DOING IT, GET OUT OF THIS HALLUCINATION, STOP SNIFFING GUNPOWDER, GO HOME AND REVIVE YOURSELF, RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN."!!!!! :O

Mak,

Good job of sugar-coating it so it goes down easier! But Saeed doesn't censor anything here, so why why don't you say what you really feel?

08 February 2002, 04:56

John Frazer

Just to address the point of whether it would be legal to do this from a licensing standpoint (I will leave aside the liability issue)--

The Gun Control Act requires you to have a license "to engage in the business of importing or manufacturing ammunition." 18 USC Sec. 922(a)(1).

The same Act defines "engaged in the business" as "a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured." 18 USC Sec. 921(a)(21)(B)

While I'm not a lawyer and I'm not giving you legal advice, it's hard to see how loading up a few rounds with components provided by your friend, and no money changing hands, would fit that definition.

John Frazer
NRA Federal Affairs Division

08 February 2002, 05:23

Dutch

Just thinking out loud here. I wonder what your home owner's insurance would have to say after you make a claim, if they find out you stored some "extra" powder so you could load for "friends"?

Anyone in the insurance business? Dutch.

08 February 2002, 07:31

rick3foxes

Here's a relevant website.

http://www.safariarms.com

I believe it's John LaSala - he will work up a load for your rifle.

Rick.

08 February 2002, 07:43

Jim in Idaho

Heck, with all of these dire warnings, I reloaded some ammo for myself. I blew up my gun, successfully sued myself, and am now retired in Florida. "Si, Carlos, mas cervesa, por favor!"

Okay, okay, I know it's a serious subject. Heed the umpteen warnings above - not a good idea.

08 February 2002, 08:08

Gatogordo

If this guy shoots nearly enough to require 500 rounds for each gun, then he needs to learn how to reload himself and you could point him down that road with no liability.

I mean, if some buddy wanted a few plinker, meaning medium velocity rounds to shoot some practice with, I might reload a few WITH him, but, as someone pointed out, if he is going to hunt with them, let him buy factory and then you won't have to share in the blame for the big one that got away or was missed, or the round didn't fire, or.......

08 February 2002, 12:22

Socrates

I remember my surprise when I double charged a 45 Colt round, when using smaller, quicker powders. Thank God I have a strong cylinder, and gun.

I wouldn't wish that on anyone, and, when reloading, it's easy to get distracted, and make such a mistake.

Let him make the mistake.

Sides, unless you've got a progressive loader, I don't think you can charge, or should charge, what the time is worth.

------------------
I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

08 February 2002, 12:44

<10point>

I agree Mony, I think its a bad idea. I have reloaded for a few close friends but I stopped even doing that.

I bet the old guy will find something to whine and complain about ; Really , Is it going to be worth it to you ?

Anyone that cheap and lazy to not reload himself isnt about to pay you premium prices for ammo. Hes experienced, and he probably knows, right down to the nub, what its all costing you.

He wants 1,500 rounds ? Well you can bet he wants to save himself as much money as he can. He knows what he can buy a reloading kit for, but he figures why do it when he can get you to. I'd bet hes planning on paying you .25 cents a round.

Boy I'd avoid this one, tell him your press broke............10

08 February 2002, 13:11

<KTS>

Yep loading ammo commercially is a pain in the butt, I have an FFL as an ammo manufacturer.
If I supply the components then I have to pay 11% excise tax, if the client provides the components then it is considered remanufacturing and there is no tax.
Depending on the caliber and quanity wanted, I charge between a dollar to 1.50 per round, client provides the brass and bullets they want to use. I supply powder, primers and time. I always quote the price to include at least 500-xtra primers and 1/2 to one pound of xtra powder, this is my profit, I shoot for free.
If a guy wants ammo that bad they can pay for it or, if they want to come over and spend an afternoon in the shop I'll teach them how to load there own for free and get them a good price on components.
Needless to say I don't load alot of ammo for folks and thats OK. Like I said there is no money in it and with the Hazmat fees involved in shipping and the liability a little guy like me don't stand a chance which, I believe, is the whole Idea behind all the regulations today.
Big Bro would rather watch a few big boys than a whole bunch of little ones.

Have your friend come over and load the ammo WITH you if you have the patience, this make the liability nil on your part, tho I'm sure a good lawyer could find a loop hole )

Wes

08 February 2002, 13:40

<Daryl Elder>

Jim in Idaho, I thought it was funny!

We Canajuns are nowhere near as litigous as ye Americans, but I would still not reload for anyone else, family or no. FWIW.

08 February 2002, 14:23

<MAKATAK>

What'up Recono

Thanks for the rerun. It did make the point and get the attention I wanted it to. Oh, and yes, I usually do.

Have you ever seen what one seemingly helpfull act can do to a helping hand??????? I was involved way long time ago, in a lawsuit involving one dumass kid who got drunk, rolled a truck on top of himself. A man happened to be behind the kid, stopped and pulled the kid out from under the BURNING TRUCK, then the truck blew up. The kid lived to sue the man who saved his life and totally ruined that man AND his family. If the man would have left the kid where he belonged, the kid would be fried chicken and the man and his family would not have the nightmare they went through to wake up to. You see why I like to sugar coat tings. Now I will stop before I really say what I think.