I have read about fireforming with a slight charge of a non-useable (unsuitable for anything but a slight charge) powder topped with cream of wheat etc. Can someone run me through a set-up to do this?

I usually load a heavy bullet, and a stiff charge, and turn it loose. I am interested in the process and benefit of the aforementioned method.

thanks

Fast powder and inert fillers is how I fireform almost everything.

Tell me what caliber you're dealing with and I can give a starting load.

Just for instance--- This week-end I fireformed 318 WR Accelerated Express from 30-06 cases with 19 gr. Unique, a small piece of toilet paper and then filled with grits. I seal the mouth by gouging out a piece of candle wax.

Load one and try it. If the shoulder isn't sharp and well formed, up the charge and RE form the ones that don't form right the first time.

BEWARE when shooting these. They're LOUD and will blow a hole in a cardbox at several feet.

For Mr. Belk. I have an Iver Johnson M1 Carbine with a .25 Cal barrel. It is in fact a .30 Carbine case necked down to .25 Cal. I contacted Redding and Hunington and both said to use the reduced charge with fillers and wax. then send them the brass and they will make a set of dies. Can't resize my .30 brass to .257 until I get the dies. However, I do have a set of .22 Spitfire dies and lots of .30 brass. Can I take a .22 Spitfire live round and fireform it to the .25 Cal chamber and barrel?

Recommendations

e-mail me at dandjent@infi.net

JustC

Your topic indicates you want to fireform Ackley Improved rounds, but your most makes no mention of this. The intent of the whole AI series is to have a chamber that can shoot factory cartridges which are fireformed in the process. These can be reloaded later. This gives you two sources of ammo, which can be handy on a trip. Fireforming more radical designs is a different story, but if I were fireforming an AI chamber, I would simply load normal (not max) conventional loads and practice shooting.

JBelk, My rifle is a 280AI. I also have a 6.5-06AI that I purchased for cheap, and havn't spent any time with yet. The 280, is the rifle I am working with right now. I have been pushing a stout load under 150-160gr bullets, and thinking that was sufficient. I have seen the threads about using your method, and wondered if I was missing something important. I would appreciate any info you can pass along with reguards to forming these cases.

Art S, I have been loading the brass and firing in the ackly chamber to form it, but as I stated above, I have seen the posts reguarding the other method of forming and wondered if I was missing a better or more concentric method.

Thanks.

[ 03-10-2003, 22:46: Message edited by: JustC ]

Jbelk, Have you ever experienced or heard of any barrel damage from using cream of wheat in fireforming, Personally I would not think it was possible for the C.O.W. to harm the barrel But I heard a rummor that alledgedly came from someone at PACNOR barrels that this method can cause damage Im sure you wouldnt be using COW in your barrels if you thought it would damage them,But I was curious if you had ever heard this rummor, Thanks Ackleyfan

With an AI cartridge, I wouldn't mess with any light loads with filler, etc. It just sounds like a lot of trouble, with a potential double charge when all you have to do is stick in one of your standard reloads or a factory shell and pull the trigger. I've yet to ruin a case forming for an Ackley cartridge, sometimes they're a little tight when you pull the bolt back, otherwise I wouldn't know the difference. I like to shoot up factory rounds and use them for offhand practice.

My gunsmith, Bobby Hart, said to use about 10 grains or so of Bullseye, fill the case with cornmeal and then stuff a wad of toilet tissue in the neck. Hold the muzzle skyward and have at it. Sometimes the junction of the case body and neck have that Weatherby radius instead of the crisp angle but the next shot with a full power load irons it out quite nicely. This fireforming is for going from 30-06 or 35 Whelen to 338-06 AI.

I wouldn't think you would have to fireform, as a separate procedure, since you're not changing diameter.

JBelk uses the same method I use to form brass. To get a beginning charge, fill a case completely full of red dot. Dump it on a scale and weigh it. Use 10% of that weight in red dot as a starting point.

I've never gotten completely sharp body-to-shoulder forming. There is always some roundness.

I rationalize fireforming this way belleiving I spend more barrel life shooting improved rounds rather than factory rounds. Plus, factory brass for hawks are a buck each.

As metioned before, this is a loud process but you can still do it in your garage (with the door down and ear protection on) by getting a piece of 4" pvc about 6' long. Glue a PVC 90deg elbow on one end and a 4"-2" reducer on the other. Tie across a couple sawhorses with the elbow pointing down. Fire your cream-of-wheat 'shotgun' onto the end with the reducer, opposite the elbow. By the time the 'shot' reaches the elbow, its out of energy and will drop to the floor.

If I understand these posts, right you can shoot regular factory cartridges in a A.I.? (280 factory cartrige in a 280AI?) Are the factory loads accurate ?
Jamie

Jamie, I loaded the factory brass with a 150gr soft point that didn't work well in my other 7mm's, charged it, and fired it in the AI chamber. The damn things were almost as accurate as the formed cases with premium bullets.

I simply asked the question to determine if the COW method had a benefit, or if my way of forming was detrimental in some way.

JustC

In my opinion, there is no benefit for an AI cartridge in a separate fireforming step. However, it is necessary for some other wildcats. A lot of people who have a lot of wildcats choose to do it by the COW/cornmeal method to be consistent across the board. Other people do it because they don't care to practice with ammo different from their service ammo or don't want to spend money for wasted bullets.

Keep in mind, as pointed out above, that the COW/cornmeal method still does not give you completely fireformed cases; they will be rounded and only finalize with a full pressure round. In my opinion, you might as well fire the full tilt round to start with and get a little practice.

I'll throw out one other comment, which is likely just my experience. I have owned a couple of K-Hornets. I tried reduced load forming rounds for both of them and kept splitting cases. I switched to firing full factory loads and never lost a case after that. I was never sure of the mechanism in play here, but it happened with two different guns.

Art S,..it would appear you and I are using the same method. I loaded a mid-heavy range bullet to get good pressure build, and then gave a powder charge out of the nosler manual, and let her rip. The forming step for me was due to using new lapua brass. I necked it down, loaded, and formed. The brass came out looking good and sharp. I always like to ask about other methods, just to make sure I am on top of my game, wouldn't want someone to have a better way of doing things

I have had a problem with neck length shrinking in 257 Roberts Ackley Improved.

1) lite loads of Bullseye and 87 gr bullet can shrink the neck .2" and not form a shoulder. Subsequent firings cannot get the neck back.

2) 19 gr Bullseye and 87 gr bullet shrinks .001 to .002".

3) 20 gr Bullseye and 87 gr bullet no shrinkage.

The problem is that 20 gr is so hot, it is close to primer pocket growth.

[ 03-11-2003, 20:55: Message edited by: Clark ]

I always used Aliant 2400 and cream of wheat, topped off with a plug of soap to make my 257 AI.

Bob257

clark, do you start with a maximum length neck?

My necks are "sucked back" when the brass forms the new blown out case body. The brass to make that new area of the now lengthened case, has to come from somewhere, and it comes from the neck.
I am trying to figure out what length I can make the neck to have it just at the very edge of the rifling so as to retain as much neck as possible after forming. I would rather trim than to need more neck length and not have it. I start with cases that have never been trimmed.

I start with new Win 257 brass that has been chamferred inside and out, but not trimmed.

well, so much for my ideas. sorry I couldn't help.

If you're forming Lapua brass then it must be 30-06, right? I don't think they make 280 brass.

In any event, shrinkage is inevitable. If you're really concerned with having exact length then try using 270 brass cause it's longer to start with. Norma makes good brass in that caliber.

I don't have cartridge specs in front of me for the 280 AI but it's quite possible that the max cartridge length is shorter for the AI version than the standard 280 Remington. As an example, the max length for 30-06 is 2.494" However, in Ken Water's Pet Loads cartridge drawing of the 338-06 Improved is 2.470" It doesn't matter cause I still have .415" of neck length which is more than the required .338" I thought about converting that extra long neck into useable body length and extra powder capacity by having my rifle rechambered to 338 Hawk, but for the price, it's not worth it.

onefunzr2, do you have access to 280AI specs? I havn't been able to find any myself.

Only from the new Sierra reloading manual #5.

Max case length is listed as 2.525" Need more?

onefunzr2 thanks. I was actually looking for info on what the neck length was "supposed" to be according to P.O. or someone who has more experience than myself with the ackleys. I just want to make sure I am not setting myself up for any accuracy problems due to the necks being too short after being formed from 06 brass.

You have any opinions on the 06 brass as a basis for forming 280AI?

Thanks

The Sierra cartridge drawing gives neck length as .350"

Mr. Ackley never took credit for designing what has become the 280 AI. He designed the 7mm-06 which is shorter overall with less case capacity.
I've looked in his two-book set, Pet Loads, Wildcat cartridges, Loaddata, etc, etc to no avail. Sierra is my only source of info for this wildcat.

You can't do better than Lapua brass IMHO.

If using '06 hulls to yield 280AI brass,I'd form a false shoulder and seat into the lands both.

My preference is to form using bullets and a "full pressure" load.

I'm also of the opinion that accelerating abrasive media(COW or similar) down the internals of a good bore,is not a positive attribute.

I'd look to use something like Re-19 and 140's,to do my case forming work,within the chambering you describe.

Your mileage may vary............

onefunzr2, thanks. Looks like I may be about .290-300" on my cases. I'm guessing that doesn't give me what I need for a good grip on the bullet. This could be part of my problem. I guess it's either new 06 lapua brass or Norma 280 brass to get what I need. I sure wish lapua would get on board with some 270 or 280 brass

Big Stick, I use the standard load of RL22 61.5gr under a bullet 10grs heavier than I use to shoot my final loads. I have not tried the COW method, but had inquired about it. I think I will stick with the bullet to form cases.

Justc: I fireform my .257 Imp. cases according to instructions in the Nosler #5 manual. They say to use a moderate to light load of a fast powder listed for the parent cartridge. Specifically, they mentioned IMR-4895 as being good for this and then seat the bullet to fully engage the lands. Since I use IMR-4895 for my normal loads, I went to IMR-4064 which I have a supply & don't use. With a charge of 36.5 grs. of 4064, and a 100 gr. Hornaday bullet ( the cheapest I could find) I get good fill out. Since I live out of town, I can just shoot into the ground for the fireforming.
I tried fireforming with a fast pistol powder (don't remember which) but I wasn't very succesful. Maybe I didn't do something right. I don't see the point of having to fireform a second time. Why not just load a bullet as I mention & do it once? Bear in Fairbanks

[ 03-14-2003, 00:22: Message edited by: Bear in Fairbanks ]

One thing to consider is how the rifle was chambered. Ackley's method was to set the barrel back and then rechamber for a very minimum chamber. That way, factory ammo was a tight fit and you just fired to fireform. A lot of people simply run the reamer into a standard chamber. If you do this, chances are good that you will have a loose chamber, and setting the bullet into the lands with a light load will save a lot of potential wear and tear on you case webs.

Art,
Where were you with that comment 4 months ago when I was chambering?

Now I have a .004" difference between the headspace of lubed and unlubed fireformed cases.

I could have made the bolt just close on a 257 Roberts case with 20 pounds at the bolt knob instead of 5 pounds.

I have another problem aslo: Bullseye & Cream of Wheat will give the sharp corners on the shoulder, but makes the case shrink .015" in length. If I back way off on the Bullseye, the shoulder is only half filled out and the case still looses .010".

Cream of Wheat adnd Unique or 2400 do not make length shrinkage, but can only get he shoulders 90% filled out, and any more powder is a waste.

Bullseye and bullets do not stop shrinking the case until the threshold of case head growth.

JustC, you only need neck length to equal bullet diameter. Therefore .290" to .300" is more than your 7mm bullet of .284" That should be plenty of grip unless, somehow, your inside neck expander is causing problems by jerking the neck all out of shape.

thanks onefunzr2.

JustC,

Not sure this helps w/280AI, but it would help w/other improved cartridges. I use .280 brass for forming my .30Gibbs. The longer .280 cases sucks back nice and I actually have to trim some off after fire forming (I use 10.5gr Titegroup/cornmeal/tissue paper).

Deke.

Thanks Deke, I think I will get some Norma 280 and form it. If only Lapua would make some....

Using 280 brass is a good idea with any of the 30/06 AI cases. It is slightly longer than any of the other '06 cases (to prevent it being fired in a 270). A pass through a sizing die sets the shoulder back so that you get a good solid headspace for fireforming. No need to seat bullets out etc.

Art, I'm using 30-06 lapua right now. I would like to have the headstamp say 280,...just for no other reason than personal satisfaction. The 30-06 brass works well, but a nice offering from lapua wouldn't hurt. You would think they would be at least offfering 270 brass.