hi
which brand is the best for bear defens ?and which kind of slugs ? brenneke or foster?
regards
danny

I know nothing about bear defense. There are a couple of threads that discussed the weapon of choice ad infinitum however. I do know if a semi auto shotgun is gonna jam, it will pick the most embarassing moment in time to do it. My vote for the best semi auto is a 870 pump.

Danny, I too have not faced an angry bear, but I would choose neither slugs or an autoloader. My choice would be a side-by-side 12 Ga loaded with #1 or 0 buckshot. The shot would most likely be close, and nothing is more lethal IMO. Too, nothing is more reliable that a double gun. You would not have time for a third shot, maybe not even a second.

Danny, I spend a lot of time working in the bush of British Columbia around bears. In my experience this discussion starts and stops with a Remington 870 and Brenneke slugs. I carry a synthetic stocked express 870 with the 20" open-sighted slug barrel and the Brenneke's, which are far superior to the soft-lead Foster type slugs. The Remington knock-off on the Barnes X bullet are a poor choice also as they tend to over-expand as they are designed presumedly for deer hunting, and that limits their penetration. Hope this helps.

Digital Dan, sorry but I've got to disagree. Try patterning buckshot sometime, and compare its penetration to a good slug. There's no contest.



With a bit of practice it's amazing how fast a person can run rounds through a good pump shotgun. Once you get your sight picture you can essentially pump like hell.



Also, with a pump shotgun you can reload while the shotgun is still ready to go, with a side-by-side you have to break the action to reload. With the pump, hold the shotgun in your right hand (assuuming you are right handed) hugged tight against your right hip, trigger finger ready. While doing this load shells into the mag with your left hand. That way you always ready to shoot again if necessary.

Danny:
I gotta stick my 2 cents in on this one. Now, for the record, I've never faced down a large bear with a shotgun but....
The man I did some guiding for in the Brooks Range told of his "mentor" Red Adney who lived at Chandalar Lake up in the Brooks Range. Red was primarily a miner who did some guiding on the side, this being in the late '40's & the 50's. Red hated bears but in his mind, the best defense was a 12 ga pump shotgun. Specifically, an Ithaca Deerslayer. Red's attitude was that there were 3 possibilities when you had your "knickers" in a jam with bears.
1. Kill the animal out right.
2. Immobilize the animal
3. Turn the animal & go after him later.

Of the 3, the 1st two scenarios are really to "dicey" thus, Red liked #3. From what I have been told, he used a 12 ga. Ithaca Deerslayer which comes with open sights. The 1st 2-3 shells he loaded into the magazine were slugs (to be fired last) the final rounds were about #3 or 4 shot (to be shot 1st). Understand, Red was a very cool customer, very much unlike most of us on the board here so he would wait until the bear was very close before he shot. I never met the man but I vaguely remember an article about him in "Outdoor Life" years ago, in the '60's.

I always enjoy the recurring question about what the "best" firearm is for a close up & personnel bear encounter. Everybody seems to think they gotta either kill the animal or perhaps break him down. Both are dicey propositions in my mind with anywhere from 4 - 800 ponds of "slash & gash" bearing down on you. Now I can't wait to see any number of the guys on the board flame me on this one.
Ya'll take care now. Bear in Fairbanks

Danny Pay,

From hunting ducks in Gumbo mudd country for most of my life, I can tell you that there is no semi-auto shotgun that is 100% reliable and you really wouldn't want to be holding a jammed auto w/ a hungry bear breathing down your neck.

Pumps are much more reliable. I would go w/ a short barrel Win. 1300 and some 3" OOO buck. That would probably give you plenty of power.

As to buckshot not being sufficient, 9 .36 cal lead balls in a 18" pattern gives you much more chances than one lead slug (Especially if that bear has you shaken up!).

Good Luck!

Reloader

Bear, no flames from me. I do have to say however I have faced down bears in the bush with a shotgun, and I personally wouldn't have shot as my first rounds. You simply won't have time to fire those rounds to get to the slugs if the bear comes fast from close range. To begin with you are carrying the shotgun with the chamber empty, so you have to pump the first round into the chamber.

I've heard stories abut having #6 shot and the like as the first shot to hopefully blind the bear, but in my experience there simply isn't time. One, maybe three shots at most.

Let's make no mistake here, the purpose of the gun is to turn the bear exactly as you said, and if we're lucky to kill it outright. Only slugs have the penetration capability to reliably do that.

RickF:
I certainly couldn't disagree with any of your comments. In fact, I kinda like your primary use of slugs. The only thing I might add, FWIW, is that the area of the Brooks that I'm speaking of is much more open than the coastal areas of Canada & Alaska. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons for the Ithaca, aside from the open sights, was that it loads & ejects from the bottom. Less chance for brush & other debris to accidentally get into the action & putting the weapon out of commission.
Later, Bear in Fairbanks

Bear, one last thought.

I did mention my use of the 870, but it really doesn't matter what brand the shotgun is provided you have put a LOT of rounds through that particular gun and it has proven to be completely reliable. At least as important is to have practiced so that when you need to use it in defence it happens automatically.

I know this falls under the "no kidding!" category, but I thought it worth mentioning.

hi gys
Thanks for replies. please excuse me ,because i made mistake and put this question in reloders section instead of Alaska . as young man i had the oportunity to follow two brothers which were reknown boar ( wild pig not bear) and one had a semie auto FN and the other a side by side both in in 12 gauge. one day sitting in an old oak i saw dogs chassing a real huge biar out of the brush at the range of maybe 30 yards or less the guy with the side by side fired two rapid shots i could see him hitting the boar each times ,but the furiuse beast kept runnig to them and the another guy begun to fire at him at real close range he emptied all his loads until the boar stopped at just a few feet! from him . more than sven shots! the boar was huge but 7 shots at such a close range!! to stop it. i asked them what they used , the guy with side by side had a slug in one barrel and 00 buck in the other barrel and the guy with semi auto had only 00 bucks .because he had problem with slugs funktion in his auto gun!which could shoot without problem with buckshots, 1 slug and 6 round 00 buck to stopp a wild pig!this scene i can never forget. luckily i was sitting on a tree out of the danger but facing a furius beast one needs a fast firing device and plenty of rounds in the magasin! that pig even one of the hugest i have ever seen(surely over 400 pounds) still much little compared to a grizly or alaskan brown bear. in my mind fast firing and reaiablity are keys to survive a charging animal.the pump guns are recomanded by many seasoned hunters from alaska and bear countries. i am actually planning to visit alaska or trip to africa depending to my future economical situation and it is why i asked this question.
regards
danny

Rick, this isn't an issue I'm really going to argue a lot about, and I knew somebody would take exception to my experience. I have patterned buckshot. That's the reason I don't shoot 00 or 000 buck...ever. In my battery of shotguns I've found that #1 down to #3 buck pattern best, and with it I have put over 70 hogs down with 1 shot. On two occassions I dropped 3 with one shot, background hogs dropping to through and through shot from the 1st hog. These were not small pigs. Contrary to common opinion, buckshot penetrates quite well. It will penetrate the shield on a large boar where hi-vel small bores will not.

I have on one occassion used two shots on a hog with buckshot. The single hog that got away did so after a 170 gr JFP from a 30-30 glanced off its forehead. The single hog I had to track fell after about 80 yards, again, shot with a 30-30.

I have read that a substantial number of PH's in Africa use SxS or pump shotguns when they have to go into dense cover to finish a wounded cat. I don't know if that's true but it makes sense to me. I read too, that they mostly use bird shot, #6 being common. The reason it makes sense is that I've seen what a load of it will do up close. Yep, another hog with #8 bird shot, DOA. It sounds good that you can reload a pump in the middle of a fracus, I doubt that you'll get the chance if a griz really wants to gnaw on you. If you face a charge it will almost always start on the animals terms, not yours, and that means close. Don't ever doubt how nasty a load of shot can be at 10-15 yards.

I have shot deer and hogs with Forster slugs, never seen one exit, ranges 5' to 40 yards. Perhaps the Brennekes are better, don't know.

As to the SxS vs. pump, take your pick, I know how quick I can reload both. I never saw a pump DGR though.

Anyway, that's been my experience. Use what you want, I stated my preference, and now my reason for same.

Brenelli M1 with 3 shot extended tube and 2.75", 1 oz Brenneke style slugs! I have owned the Winchester 1200, Winchester 1300, and the Remington 870. All three pump guns had fail to feed issues, and to be quite honest, they can be easy to short stroke under pressure (that nasty ol' human error issue rising it's ugly head)! The Brenelli is awesomely reliable and accurate (more importantly it ain't afraid of no bear so it don't screw up when the pressure is on aka it is MUCH MORE IDIOT PROOF)!

I've never done it but I have read about Guides on Hunting trips using 00 buck in their pump shotguns to shoot the front legs of the charging bear to where he can only snow plow after that. They say you take his front legs out and he's out of business. Makes since to me.

Mag

I've got to throw my two cents in here. I live in a shotgun only state, and have used one in particular since I bought it in the 70's. It's a Remington 1100. I have never, ever had a failure yo feed or fire with this shotgun!! It has had literally thousands of rounds of slugs through it, not to mention a fair share of bird and buckshot. I'm not particularly good at maintaining this firearm, I usually wait until the plastic builds up to an ugly mess in the barrel before cleaning it. I try to get what crud I can out of the receiver by removing the barrel periodically, but that's about it for maintenance. Other than that, I check the o-ring on a yearly basis. I think I've replaced twice so far in 30 odd years. I've seen more problems with pumps over the years(at slug and turkey shoots) than I've ever seen with semis. Maybe I just got a good one, but I don't think so. I wouldn't think twice about using my 1100 in bear country.

bowhuntr

I definitely recommend AGAINST Foster-type slugs for use in any situation in which deep penetration of heavy bone and muscle (read "BEARS") is needed. They are thin shells of lead, and have virtually NO sectional density at all. Brennekes would be much better, and the new high energy tough Partition Gold types by Winchester and a few others are better still (but need a rifled bore!!).



For an auto, a Remington 1100 is pretty reliable, but personally I'd prefer a manually operated gadget like the totally reliable Rem. 870 or Ithaca M37!! Less to go wrong!!

I agree with Beemanbeme: The best semi-auto for bear is a Remington 870 pump!

AD

Allen,
It is obvious to me that you have never seen/witnessed a pump shotgun used under severe distress! Ask yourself why the Marines, after 80 years of using pumps, have finally adopted a semi-auto. Of course it has a pump feature incase the gas system fails, but the pump action capability is a secondary fail safe feature.

It is VERY easy to short stroke a pump gun and then you are in a world of shit (if the chips are down)!

No, Poseur, the question is, why did the marines use pumps for 80 years when auto's were available???? As far as all this short stroking is concerned, obviously you've never shot a pump. When you pull one into your shoulder and fire, the action cycles almost by itself.
We can find "human error" ad infinitum with anything you can put in the field -as someone posted: "build a tool that's idiot proof and they'll invite a better idiot" -what we're talking about here is reliability. If the person taking whatever device in the field doesn't familarize himself with it and gets lost, frozen, hungry, eaten, etc, you can't blame that on the device.

beemanbeme,

Quote:

---

We can find "human error" ad infinitum with anything you can put in the field

---

For this reason alone, it is imperative that the operator (human) have the FEWEST things to do possible! With a pump gun he must cycle the pump, CORRECTLY, and squeeze the trigger. With the auto loader he simply needs to squeeze the trigger.

By the way, I would be happy to perform a reliability test with a Benelli M1 against any of the American pump shotguns named thus far on this thread.

I have extensive experience with the pump shotguns I named (Winchester 1200 & 1300 and the Remington 870). I would say the Remington is better, but I would really be splitting hairs. You are correct, in that if one uses a rifle style hold (pulling back on the forearm), the pump will open itself up, although it may not come completely to the rear and therefore allow for proper cycling of the feed mechanism, so it is prudent to still pull rearward on the forearm after firing to insure that the action has completed it's cycle. With a slicked up pump gun, using the rifle hold, one can simply hold the trigger back and push forward to fire very rapidly, the Benelli M1 is even quicker though for aimed shots. If a typical shotgun hold is used (pushing forward on the forearm) the pump does not cycle "by itself" if must be pulled back and then forward. Please do not insult my intelligence with anymore of your opinionated crap. The facts do not support your comments at all.

When I worked in the Canadian arctic, polar bears were a real continual pest (although I will say that they were more interesting than the mosquitoes).



Nobody ever used semi-autos -- pump shotguns were the rule for those less-skilled with firearms, bolt-action rifles for the rest.



You do have to remember that this is the tundra -- flat, and if you paid attention you would see a bear stalking you before it got very close (a different situation than in grizzly country where encouters of the close kind are more likely!).



The most popular bolt-action rifle? Lee Enfield Jungle Carbines, or cut-down rifle models. Perhaps not ideal, but with the rear-mounted bolt handle, it is the fastest bolt gun around (British shooters using it held their own against teams using semi-autos for years after WW2).



Also. the 10 round capacity means you can spare a warning shot or two. This isn't a trivial matter -- bears could often be disuaded in this way, and the saying among biologists was that if you shot a bear, you had better make sure it was dead, then put your arm in its mouth to get some good teeth marks so you could really document self defense. There was lots of paperwork for shooting a polar bear...



jpb

hi guys thanks for all the replies.
hi JPB
Those jungle carbine you mentioned are available from Gibbs gun company in rust protected version which would be even better choice for humide climate, but the main problem is caliber they offer them in 303 british or 308 win which after all alaskan stories seem to be on the light side. otherwise i own a vey fast shooting savage 340 but it is in 3030 sorry too light for alaska too!! I own a very fast shooting and relaiable swedish made pump action shotgun called (bergslagsb�ssa) entirely made of stainless steel but again a major problem is magasin capacity, it holds only 2 rounds! due to the law of magazin regulation . it seems i need to buy a gun especially for alaskan trip . anyway i am not going there for bear hunting mainly for fishing and if possible smal game hunting. the gun would be for smal game and bear protection if needed. finally i have to add i have no faith in buckshots for bear ,they penetrate less than a 22 lr . i have made many tests with the major buckshot brands and 00 bucks and 22 lr outpenetrating them by a real good margin.
regards
danny

Hej Danny



I didn't know that Alaska was in the picture. For there, any encounters are more likely to be very close and sudden (compared to my work on the tundra). I would defer to the advice of those in grizzly country in that case.



I agree that the .303 British isn't particularly high powered, but I doubt that a charing grizzly bear is particularly impressed by shocking power. At very close range, you are going to need a central nervous system hit to bring things to a happy conclusion anyway, and the .303 British (with it heavy slow bullets) is a good penetrator.



I know about the Gibbs rifles, but 303's are so cheap in Canada that you can buy 10 of them for the price of one Gibbs, and toss them away away one by one if they rusted ....



Currently you can buy 303's (although jungle carbines cost a bit more) for 25 bucks each. That is right, and that is Canadian dollars (about $US 19)! There are thousands of them are on the market now because of Canada's recent idiotic gun legislation).



There is nothing that special about the .303 other than the huge supply (although the bolt is fast to cycle and it does have a good capacity).



You won't find 303 ammo in Alaska, and even if you did it is weakly loaded. Norma ammo is another story though!



mvh,



jpb

Would the useage of pump guns have anything to do with the fact that the semi-autos cost 2 to 5 times more than a pump shotgun? Ever use a Benelli inertia action semi auto? Of course it cost a hell of a lot more than a Winchester 1300, but you really do get what you pay for!

You all missed mentioning maybe the finest and most reliable auto shotgun ever built..........a Belgian Browning A-5 .



With halfway decent mantinence , it is very close in relibility to any of the pumpguns mentioned.........

Evidently, The Marines can't find an average good man to work a pump gun anymore, which is a pretty sorry statement.....

AD

Allen,

Thank you VERY MUCH for answering my question! Your answer is precisely as I suspected.

Danny, you sure ask fun questions! This one is better than "which 150 gr FMJ for game"! I like DigitalDan's take precisely because it matches up with what you watched from the tree. If you are going to stop a bear, it will be from feet only or you go to jail (in Alaska). If it is so far away that only a slug would have worked you will have to do some fast talking to convince the game folks you were really in eminent threat. Good come back Dan; exactly how many DG rifles are pumps?

Poseur=fake. One who trys to impress others. Wow, I'm impressed. It appears with your vast experiences with shotguns, you came away with little knowledge.
I am glad you own a nice shotgun tho.

In the early 1970's, the Custom Gun Shop in Edmonton, Alberta used to build shotguns for the camera crews of the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) who did LOTS of work with large bears, both polar and griz.



The shotgun of choice was the Remington M870, with the stock cut-off just behind the pistol grip, and the barrel cut off just in front of the magazine tube. That left the barrel long enough to be legal, and the whole rig just over the 26" minimum legal length, but still a very handy size. It was carried on the photog's pack frame in a position where he/she could just reach straight up over the right shoulder with the right hand (if right-handed) and grab it.



Best loads proved over time to be SSG shot (similar to American 0-buck, IIRC). Second best, again IIRC, was #4 buckshot. (That's NOT #4 bird-shot, but #4 buckshot.) Brenneke slugs were available at the time, but the shot loads outperformed them on thick, matted bear hair. The shot seemed to "chew" its way through the hair.



Rule of use was "Draw a 'dead-line' of 10-12 feet (NOT yards). If the bear crosses that line for any reason, don't try to figure out what its intentions are, shoot it. If the bear doesn't cross that line, DON'T shoot it." Many charges (at least with griz) are false charges, but they become real charges if you piss the bear off by shooting it with shot at a distance where the shot has started to open up. I'm not sure polars HAVE such a thing as a false charge. They seem to be more likely to view humans as just another yummy protein source.



YMMV



AC

beemanbeme

Your last post sums it up well. Since you made no direct statement to my last post to you, that is. You finally figured out that you were full of, well you know what you are full of.

Newsflash, so do many many others!

I don't have anything against pumps at all... but, seemingly all of Benelli's Semi Auto shotguns are very reliable. Extremely Reliably. If you were to dish out the cash for say a Benelli Super Black Eagle you could shoot
3 1/2" Lightfield Commander IDS Slugs and I guarantee you that pentration or impact will not be lacking.

P.S. The Marines have found one heck of a weapon in the Benelli M4.