Would someone mind detailing Audett's Ladder technique? Hope I spelled it correct

And, is it functional at 100yards? or are extended distances required?

Thank ya!

Somr folks may be interested in this

It's the best description of the process I've found.

Vapodog's link is a good description. I would not attempt it at 100yd. I've done it at 200 but to me 300 worked the best.

quote:

300 worked the best

Also, Once you start shooting, take different colored perm markers with you to the range. Mark the entire ogive with different colors so that it leaves the respective color on the paper/bullet hole as the bullet passes. Makes identifying each hole much easier if you 1)don't have a spotting scope, 2) don't have a powerful enough spotting scope, 3) am having a day where the lighting makes it hard to use the spotting scope.

I like some shade of red/pink, green, blue/purple and black. Then repeat.

Alan

Hey BISCUT

Here are a couple of Audette ladders I have done lately. I did them because I wanted to change powders in my 6.5 rem mag to RL17, so the main purpose of the Audette was to find out what kind of velocity I could get and also to see if Audette's daughter (private joke with rc) would start looking a little better than she had in the past. It is an easy method to start low and only load one round at a time and keep going up till you hit max or get the velocity you want (constant seating depth of .030" off lands)




now the theory is that you will get a steady rise in point of impact until you hit an accuracy node and then 3 or 4 shots will "group" together.

Now I suppose you could say that on the first try shots number 9, 10 & 11 sorta grouped around 51.4 gr but the velocity was not what I wanted so I kept going up in the second test. In the 2nd test you could definitely say there was a "group" or leveling off with shots 7, 8, 9 & 10 but I can not tell you for sure that another test with the same parameters would yield the same results. Probably

Anyway the velocity was where I wanted it at 3200 fps so I picked 54.5 grains and then proceeded to the next test which was a seating depth test (at 200 yds since you are shooting groups)



IMO the 2 tests go hand in hand but what you need to notice about the seating depth test is the constant decrease in velocity with increased seating depth. So IMO you need to slightly increase your powder charge weight with each increase in seating depth in order to keep your velocity at the same level or you will have to go back and do the Audette using the new seating depth. IOW when you seat deeper your velocity will fall and the Audette is no longer good.

But the Audette is good to get your charge weight (one shot at each charge) and the seating depth test is good (4 or 5 shots at each seating depth) to check your groups.

No, you can not do it at 100 yards since the small variations in POI will not be ascertainable.

In this photo (damn good shooting BTW) I see something that so often is very misinterpreted.

IMO there is no difference in the seating depth groups but many will argue that (in this case) .060 off is most accurate.

Statistically it is not!....They are all equal mathematically. From misinterpretation we get a lot of misinformation. It's why we must repeat the experiment many times unless there is a dramatic difference.....in in this photo the groups are not dramatically different.



Something else needs to be said.....unless your rifle has already shown signs of being extremely accurate the Audette procedure is quite worthless.

"Something else needs to be said.....unless your rifle has already shown signs of being extremely accurate the Audette procedure is quite worthless."


I AGREE COMPLETELY!

As usual, thanks to the man with the cigar! And everyone else.

When you say unless the rifle is extremenly accurate the ladder many be useless. What king of accuracy are we talking? half in 5 shot? 3/4" 5 shot at 100yards?

For me, 100yard range is easy 200 and 300 is a bit more of a hassle. I have many rifles I've worked to get 1/2 to 3/4 5 shot groups at 100yards. Are these good enough?

Or is 3 shot accuracy what is considerd in determing the rifles accuracy for this test? In my experience there is a big difference between a 3 shot and a 5 shot group.

quote:

1/2 to 3/4 5 shot groups at 100yards

That's going to be fine. I was thinking about a lot of folks that are happy with 1.5" groups and for those people an Audette at 300 yards may be an exercise in futility.

I have several rifles that fit that category but as hunting rifles to 300 yards they fill the bill just fine.

How would you use this method of load development for the 30-30 level action? 300 yards seems to be a little extreme. This is a real question for “the people in the know”.

Is there a group of rifles and rounds that are not “inherently accurate” enough to utilize the Audett's Ladder?

IMO the 30-30 would have enough rise per incremental increase in velocity to show the difference at 200 yards and the test would look much like the pics above

But I ain't sure, never done it

If your 30-30 was accurate then it would work, if not it won't

Accuracy is where you find it. You could get a NEF single shot that was accurate enough or a Sako 270 that wasn't (not likely but possible). So that determination needs to made by each according to his rifle

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...the test would look much like the pics above

But I ain't sure, ...

Looks like a Quotable quote to me.
-----

"...the test would look much like the pics above ...But I ain't sure," : Woods, 2011

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
How would you use this method of load development for the 30-30 level action? 300 yards seems to be a little extreme. This is a real question for “the people in the know”.

Is there a group of rifles and rounds that are not “inherently accurate” enough to utilize the Audett's Ladder?

IMO the standard lever action .30-30 will not benefit from Audette treatment.

It's simply not a long range item nor do most levers supply good groups.

Very fine hunting rifles for sure.....but very few .30-30 owners care about 1/2" groups.....most are happy to shoot minute of deer!

As to inherently accurate.....any cartridge/rifle combination not currently shooting (at least) MOA is not likely going to be worth the time to do this.

I'll even crawl out on a limb here and say that the majority of hunters that consider 350 yards a long shot will not benefit from Audett's work. I see it as a long range shooter's tool. I've tried it in the past and have not had the success demonstrated here and mostly because my guns are not the "caliber" some of the guys are using in this thread. My guns are strictly hunting guns and not at all built with super long range design in mind.....and that might change pretty soon!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...the test would look much like the pics above

But I ain't sure, ...

Looks like a Quotable quote to me.
-----

"...the test would look much like the pics above ...But I ain't sure," : Woods, 2011

Once again I have to make sure you get things right HC!

I said:

IMO

That means that everything immediately after is not based in fact but only my opinion

the 30-30 would have enough rise per incremental increase in velocity to show the difference at 200 yards and the test would look much like the pics above

based only on my opinion (see above "IMO")

But I ain't sure, never done it

Once again reiterating and reinforcing the above "IMO"

----------------

But you can feel free to quote me anytime, after my Dinars pay off I am going to hire the same accounting firm that Rush Limbaugh has and they can verify that I am correct 99.85% of the time just like him. And you ain't quick enough on your feet to catch me the other .15% of the time!

MOF there was only one time I recall that I was completely wrong and that was some time ago on an obscure thread that you will not find, jeffe corrected me and I learned something, if you can imagine that happening.

OK, I'll try to get it right this time.

quote:

"...the test would look much like the pics above ...But I ain't sure,"... - Woods, 2011

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
OK, I'll try to get it right this time.

quote:

"IMO...the test would look much like the pics above ...But I ain't sure,"... - Woods, 2011

Fixed it for you HC

The reason for my above question is because a number of caliber/round/rifle combinations IMO can’t utilize the Audett's ladder for load development.

I've noticed the problem just as Vapo says.

In rifles that are incapable of good accuracy. I also think that it's a good way to weed out bad rifles from your safe. If they are throwing bullets around where an Audette tells you nothing, especially if you shoot 2 or 3 with different components, they need to go "down the road".....

New Sig Line....

Well then Mr X...spurt rc

If I seat the bullets at .060" off, should I increase the load to ~55.0 grs in order to gain the velocity needed to put it back in the Audette group presently shown by shots 7 thru 10? IOW if I keep the present load of 54.5 gr and seat at .060" then my velocity would be around shot #6 which showed a significantly lower POI than those fired at the faster velocity and the Audette is negated.

How about if I load 2 variations

55.0 gr at .060" off
55.5 gr at .060" off

Or should I just shoot the whole Audette at a seating depth of .060" and see what happens? (you know I once said seating depth should be determined first ...... didn't I? )

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I've noticed the problem just as Vapo says.

In rifles that are incapable of good accuracy. I also think that it's a good way to weed out bad rifles from your safe. If they are throwing bullets around where an Audette tells you nothing, especially if you shoot 2 or 3 with different components, they need to go "down the road".....

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Well then Mr X...spurt rc

If I seat the bullets at .060" off, should I increase the load to ~55.0 grs in order to gain the velocity needed to put it back in the Audette group presently shown by shots 7 thru 10? IOW if I keep the present load of 54.5 gr and seat at .060" then my velocity would be around shot #6 which showed a significantly lower POI than those fired at the faster velocity and the Audette is negated.

How about if I load 2 variations

55.0 gr at .060" off
55.5 gr at .060" off

Or should I just shoot the whole Audette at a seating depth of .060" and see what happens? (you know I once said seating depth should be determined first ...... didn't I? )

You don't need to do any more charge weight tuning when you have a load that shoots as well as your 54.5 gr load at .060" off of the rifling. You shot the Audette to find the node, then you shot the seating depth test to make the chosen load group. You're done! What more do you want? The point is to settle on an accurate load. If the load groups like the .060" depth load (minimal vertical) you should be happy if it is....like you always say....REPEATABLE. Velocity shouldn't be paramount to accuracy, especially a measly 25 fps!

I bet if you increase the charge at .060", accuracy will go away.

I guess you could try adjusting charge and depth trying to get optimal, no vertical dispersion accuracy at 3200 fps until you wear your barrel out if you want... If velocity is paramount, why not just find the safe MAX with RL-17 then try to tune with depth? That was my contention all along but sometimes it doesn't work!

We've had some good discussions about depth vs. charge.

You said determine charge first then tweak depth and y...yo...you were RIGHT! BUT...I still think that every seating depth will require a different charge weight for best accuracy

Well you see here is my problem

• the Audette showed the velocity range of 3200 to 3250 was the node; #7 thru 10
• the seating depth showed .030" or .060" (and I don't disagree that .060" is attractive) as good grouping
• the .060" seating depth showed a velocity of 3176 fps which is around shots #6 thru 7 on the Audette which was not in an accuracy node
• the purpose of the Audette was to land in the middle of a low POI change per velocity/charge change
• I need to shoot 3200 fps to shoot at 14 power with my Zeiss RapidZ 800 reticle
• I would be unhappy shooting at ~3175 fps and being that much slower than your 264 win mag
• I could do an Audette at .060" seating depth but that would lend credence to your long time ago and mostly forgotten hypothesis that seating depth needed to be determined first (wouldn't want to do that especially since I totally changed your mind and HC would try to assert I was wrong back then )

so more testing is required

will advise

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...I need to shoot 3200 fps to shoot at 14 power with my Zeiss RapidZ 800 reticle

Actually, it really doesn't matter at all what the Velocity happens to be. Everyone should "verify" the actual Drop Rate and then create a Drop Chart, regardless of what the scope Designers believe it will do. So your comment would be Wrong-O!

quote:

...I could do an Audette at .060" seating depth but that would lend credence to your long time ago and mostly forgotten hypothesis that seating depth needed to be determined first (wouldn't want to do that especially since I totally changed your mind and HC would try to assert I was wrong back then )

Actually, you were Right back then. Even in my procedure for the never imporved upon Creighton Audette Method, it says to "Fine Tune the Final Load by Adjusting the Seating Depth."

However, it appears you have already run the Audette Method, so you would be merely Fine Tuning by checking the 0.060" Seating Depth - even if you use a couple of different Loads.

.

quote:

I need to shoot 3200 fps to shoot at 14 power with my Zeiss RapidZ 800 reticle

At 3175 fps all you would need to do is turn the power down a little, shoot and confirm that it matches the reticle on the new setting

quote:

I could do an Audette at .060" seating depth but that would lend credence to your long time ago and mostly forgotten hypothesis that seating depth needed to be determined first (wouldn't want to do that especially since I totally changed your mind and HC would try to assert I was wrong back then )

If you shoot another Audette at .060" off guess which charge will be in the node?

I'm gonna do some loads at .060" off:

54.4 gr
54.7 gr
55.0 gr
55.3 gr

When I get around to it