Cleaning the bore is fine, some people do it after every one or two rounds, some others after some ten or twenty shots. For some bores it seems to be necessary to have one or two fouling shots to avoid flyers and to 'settle' the clean barrel. Could anyone explain me why, in some barrels now and then, the first one or two bullets go some place on the target after cleaning the bore thouroughly? When I clean my barrel with Shooter's Choice and CR 10 after ten rounds, things seems well and the impact of the first bullet out of five is mostly within about 0,8 MOA (Remington 700 Sendero, .270 Win). When I use the Foul Out method of Outers, I need some ten rounds before good accuracy is restored. Velocity of the first shot with a clean barrel is within the SD of 10 to 15. The thing I am interested in is, why a bullet in some cleaned bore seems to give other vibrations and why it seems to be worse if the bore is as clean as a new one! Thank you!
Jan M., Netherlands.

Jan, just conjecture on my part, but I believe the issue is variables. Don't mean to sound trite, but once a barrel has been fired a fews times it has some uniformity in regards to what each successive bullet experiences as it passes thru the bore. A "clean" bore probably has some oil residue, or maybe not, but in any case it isn't what successive shots experience. JMO

What Dan said. One of the big variables is in the throat. When it has been fired a few times, the little cracks are nicely filled with a mixture of gilding metal (jacket material) and carbon.

When "squeeky clean", those same little cracks work more like a file. More resistance during engraving (or less, who really knows?). Thus, engraving is done at a different level of pressure, which changes the location of the bullet with respect to the vibration pattern in the barrel.

Same with the barrel. A little oil, a few rough spots, and things change. HTH, Dutch.

I'm no expert, but I keep my barrel very clean.
I am a deer hunter and I know that the first shot out of my clean Browning Eclipse 300WSM is going to hit its mark. I clean after every 3 shots. It has never taken 3 shots for me to kill my animal.

After I clean my A-Bolt, my first shot will usually be about an inch away from the rest of the following shots. But it is only the first shot for this rifle. I don't normally clean my barrel for the duration of the hunting season and my point of impact is consistent.

I think that the clean barrel must have more friction than a dirty barrel, (that really sounds ironic) and therefore tends to create different barrel vibrations than the rest of the shots.

Funny, I was thinking of trhis and it came up on another board. I am not a 'stickler' for absolute clean barrels. I try to clean my rifles about once a year, usually during the late summer. I have practically retired my 30-06 mainly because I consider it overkill on the deer/pigs that I shoot. Because of this it has not been cleaned for almost two years. I've probably shot it 150-200 (mostly milsurp) times since it's last cleaning. Last week my hunting buddy and I decided to work up some loads for his new 30-06 CDL and I decided to 'play' with mine. Using H4350 It shot five three shot groups the best .79 and the worst 1.6 using diffrent loads of the same powder. Now what should I do? Clean or not.? I hear this little voice..."if it ain't broke..." capt david
BTW this is the same gun that my buddy thinks I'm crazy for wanting to rebarrel with a longer barrel. Maybe he's right "if it ain't broke..."

quote:

Originally posted by captdavid:
Funny, I was thinking of trhis and it came up on another board. I am not a 'stickler' for absolute clean barrels. I try to clean my rifles about once a year, "

Since the advent of non corrosive primers I have been of the same mind for hunting rifles. In the taking of game the cold barrel accuracy is what counts. By todays standards I never had a truely clean barrel until I started paticipating on this forum but with many of my rifles I could pick them up and know just where they would hit.

If you are trying to make small groups on paper or perhaps varmint hunting I can see the posible value of fouling shots.

When you spend more time cleaning rifles than you do shooting them you begin to question your newly acquired shooting philosophy.

Let's hear it for the cold fouled bore.

I like it " if it ain't broke..." roger

quote:

Originally posted by Jan:
For some bores it seems to be necessary to have one or two fouling shots to avoid flyers and to 'settle' the clean barrel.

Friction.............

And how friction effects the time pressure curve.

How sensitive your gun is to slightly different velocities....... Some clean barrels chronograph faster that dirty, others slower, and some change with the powder burning rate and type in the same gun.

If one is positive where their gun shoots clean, then a clean barreled hunt may be appropriate.

I much prefer the barrel to be fouled a few shots myself. I always shoot one last shot from a "cold" barrel as well. By "cold" I mean 4 hours or more without a shot. Some guns shot a cold foul different from a hot foul!

Variables as Dan says probably sums it up quite well.......... The above thoughts removing a good portion of the variables for me in many, many, different guns and loads to draw info from.

BigRx

Don't forget "barrel temperature" as a factor. Temperature changes cause dimensional changes, and dimension changes cause accuracy changes.

I have a number of rifles which are dedicated to the "cast bullet bench-rest" discipline. One of those in particular WILL NOT shoot accurately if either clean OR cold. With a properly "seasoned" AND warm barrel, it will consistently shoot 10-shot groups of under 1/2" at 100 yards. If you clean it, the first 5-shot group afterward will usually measure OVER 1". It will take about 8 shots to really go back to being a hummer.

When you let the barrel cool,, but do not clean it (Like when the pit crew is changing targets or you are changing relays), it takes two fouling shots before it will go back to shooting its best. The fouling is still the same as when it was last shot, but the barrel temp is less for those first couple of shots.

On the other hand, I have another match rifle which will only shoot its best when sparkly clean. Bev Pinney, of British Columbia, who won the national championship the year after I did, used a Ron Smith gain-twist barrel which had to be kept so clean that the year he won, he had to clean after every 5 shots, even in the 10-shot group segment of the competition!

The plain truth is, there's lots of theories out there, probably most of which are at least partly correct, but NOBODY knows for sure the be-all and end-all of "WHY". If that was known, someone would make barrels which avoid the problem(s),whatever it is or they are.

What we CAN do, whether for match rifles or hunting rifles, is learn what approach each of our individual rifles "likes" the best, and act accordingly.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:


When you spend more time cleaning rifles than you do shooting them you begin to question your newly acquired shooting philosophy.

Let's hear it for the cold fouled bore.

I like it " if it ain't broke..." roger

I'm with you! Many of my rifles get cleaned only once a year. Others more often depending on circumstances (dust, rain, etc.).

When I'm planning on hunting with any particular rifle, I take it to the range (or just out on the desert) and shoot enough to confirm zero AND to foul the bore.

I think the differences in temperature between a cold and a warm barrel may cause part of the difference. Also, that first shot is used to blow any oil remaining in the barrel away. I'm not sure if that could produce a difference in friction or not. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

quote:

Originally posted by wrsmith:
I'm no expert, but I keep my barrel very clean.
I am a deer hunter and I know that the first shot out of my clean Browning Eclipse 300WSM is going to hit its mark. I clean after every 3 shots. It has never taken 3 shots for me to kill my animal.

But, it does appear you are the only one posting that knows how to properly care for a barrel.

A fouled barrel is basically full of small "batteries" (two dis-similar metals that when exposed to moisture begin generating micro-current). As the batteries work, metal(barrel steel) is transfered to the copper and a small "pit" is created. No corosive Primers are needed to create this condition, but of course they would make it worse if anyone still has any.

As long as you keep the "fouled bore" inside where the humidity is well controlled at low levels, the "pits" will just appear as roughness, but you can't stop the physics.

So, I keep mine clean too. Not challenging anyone about how they care(?) for their firearms at all. Since I don't typically buy "Used Firearms" it has no effect on me at all.

By the way "wrsmith", Welcome Aboard! Good to see someone join that knows how to properly care for a barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wrsmith:
But, it does appear you are the only one posting that knows how to properly care for a barrel.

By the way "wrsmith", Welcome Aboard! Good to see someone join that knows how to properly care for a barrel.

Now you did it! You just cut me to the quick! Now I have to live with scout rifles and dirty barrels. What a guy!?. roger

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hot Core:But, it does appear you are the only one posting that knows how to properly care for a barrel.QUOTE]
----------------------------------------------

A rather hasty assumption, I'd say.

Of course, the discussion was as to why (and even maybe whether) some barrels need fouling shots to begin delivering peak accuracy. It had nothing to do with how to prolong barrel life.

Many competitive shooters don't have to worry about mini-batteries ruining their bores. Several thousand rounds per year or more will make the barrel no longer suitable for competitive use well before any such electrical activity.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Many competitive shooters don't have to worry about mini-batteries ruining their bores. Several thousand rounds per year or more will make the barrel no longer suitable for competitive use well before any such electrical activity.

A rather hasty assumption, I'd say.

Of course, the discussion was as to why (and even maybe whether) some barrels need fouling shots to begin delivering peak accuracy. It had nothing to do with competitive shooters.

Well now. As a impressionable young Cadet I thought we cleaned our rifles after every shoot
to stop them rusting.
You all shooting stainless these days?

What ever wit first said "more barrels are ruined" etc. must have lived in a desert.

Appart from my experences with needing fouling shots (none), may I mention one of our fullbore club members. (All our rifles are CLEAN, first shot each day.) When I started marking the target for this bloke, he would nearly always miss the bullseye down wind a bit. Ya should move over a minute I thinks.
Next shot, 2nd and last sighter goes same damned place. What a dork I thought.
1st shot to count, smack in the middle.

Now I think, he saw the wind effect, proved it and proved his sighting ability (and bye the bye showed no noticable effect in first shot variation, and then made the correct correction for wind only.
In all the long range shoots I've attended no one ever wanted a fouling shot.
And Full-bore shooting I think would be more like hunting than Benchrest or Varminting.

I still say if your rifle throws the first shot,
there is something wrong with it.
John L.

Maybe something to all this cleaning and accruacy. I shot some 25 yard groups at 5 through the same hole. Took it home and cleaned it with some foam bore cleaner and it shot 1.5-2.0 at 100 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Well now. As a impressionable young Cadet I thought we cleaned our rifles after every shoot
to stop them rusting.
You all shooting stainless these days?

What ever wit first said "more barrels are ruined" etc. must have lived in a desert.

Appart from my experences with needing fouling shots (none), may I mention one of our fullbore club members. (All our rifles are CLEAN, first shot each day.) When I started marking the target for this bloke, he would nearly always miss the bullseye down wind a bit. Ya should move over a minute I thinks.
Next shot, 2nd and last sighter goes same damned place. What a dork I thought.
1st shot to count, smack in the middle.

Now I think, he saw the wind effect, proved it and proved his sighting ability (and bye the bye showed no noticable effect in first shot variation, and then made the correct correction for wind only.
In all the long range shoots I've attended no one ever wanted a fouling shot.
And Full-bore shooting I think would be more like hunting than Benchrest or Varminting.

I still say if your rifle throws the first shot,
there is something wrong with it.
John L.

-------------------------------------


I'll bet I have at least as many rounds downrange as you do, Sir, and have been a Palma Team member, a Life Master in Hi-power, and a National Champion in benchrest. Trust me, some rifles shoot better with a fouling shot (or more than one), some do not. Some shoot best sparkiling clean, some do not.

There are things I have not experienced which are still true, regardless. You may find it to be the same, observed over enough years.

Certainly, Sir, but surely we are talking in degrees. Most good barrels will shoot "good enough" either way. A crook barrel will show its self up one way or another.
I first got into this type of arguement with our esteemed RIP, which was supposed to be about
hunting type accuracy, next thing he is into me about improving accuracy starting UNDER 1 minute of angle. Now who among us in the average hunting situation, can hold that well?

I think the main thing is to know your barrel and if necessary make your own allowences, but to say all shooters need to foul a rifle barrel and then leave it dirty for (years, some one here boasted about) is a bit over the top??
John L.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Certainly, Sir, but surely we are talking in degrees. Most good barrels will shoot "good enough" either way. A crook barrel will show its self up one way or another.
I first got into this type of arguement with our esteemed RIP, which was supposed to be about
hunting type accuracy, next thing he is into me about improving accuracy starting UNDER 1
minute of angle. Now who among us in the average hunting situation, can hold that well?

I think the main thing is to know your barrel and if necessary make your own allowences, but to say all shooters need to foul a rifle barrel and then leave it dirty for (years, some one here boasted about) is a bit over the top??
John L.

------------------------------------------

I certainly agree with that, and would NEVER say all barrels need such shots.! Fouling shots are definitely NOT necessary to all barrels, maybe even not to most barrels.

If a partricular hunting rifle does significantly change point of impact and accuracy after the first one, two, or three rounds, as some do, that is pretty unimportant if one KNOWS where it is going to place the first two or three.

First shot consistency is, of course, the most important consideration in a hunting rifle, I believe.

I was not trying to get on your case, just pointing out that your gratuitous comment about most of us not knowing how to care for a barrel may have been incorrect, somewhat unkind, and not particularly relevant to this discussion.

Best wishes,

Alberta Canuck

P.S. Your Auzzie team won the Palma Match the year I was on our Palma team ('79). It was held at trentham (Upper Hutt), NZ.

I have to say that out of 5 rifles I regularly shoot, all of them shoot to the same POI when clean or after a fouling shot. I have noticed that the second shot when fired within 2 or 3 minutes will sometimes move, but not by much. When I go to the range I like to take at least 3 rifles (all clean). I will load 2 cartridges and fire deliberately both. This is in order to see where the 2nd shot will go and if there is a problem so I will know in a hunting situation. It then goes back to the rack and the next gun is treated the same way.

The first shot in a cold clean gun when finalizing before hunting season is the most important and I will zero my gun to fit that POI. Always do this at least twice to verify accuracy with that first shot.


Without guns we are subjects (or victims), with guns we are citizens

[QUOTE
I was not trying to get on your case, just pointing out that your gratuitous comment about most of us not knowing how to care for a barrel may have been incorrect, somewhat unkind, and not particularly relevant to this discussion.

Best wishes,

Alberta Canuck

QUOTE]

What gratuitous comment? I don't believe in an us and you situation. I'm just commenting on people who leave their barrels dirty for "the season" or for years apparently, whether they are here or there. And that's their business, but Im just wondering how they stop rust??

I'm really in this to learn, and the best way on these threads is to get an arguement going with plenty of opinions expressed.
Trouble is I'm often taken wrong.
Now I'm back on my medication I'm really a nice bloke.
John L.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
.. Now I have to live with scout rifles and dirty barrels. ...

Hey Roger, You really don't "have to".

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
...I still say if your rifle throws the first shot, there is something wrong with it. ...

I tend to agree with John concerning this issue. No doubt that some rifles will begin moving the Point-of-Impact after a few shots. The question then becomes is it worth correcting to the owner.

If it occurs after only one shot, then it absolutely needs to be fixed, rather than using it as an excuse for poor maintenance.

Part of the issue might be just how many shots does it take for a person to kill what he is hunting? Over five decades I've never put 3-bullets into a Deer and perhaps only 4 or 5 got 2-shots. Shots have been from straight down to a very long way off and if you are properly prepared, have a good steady position and your concentration is focused properly, anyone can do as well as I've done.

So, perhaps I'm missing "Why?" a person would think they need more shots.

Where the first hits from a cold barrel is of great importance to me. An obvious application is varmint hunting but we want our big game rifles to hit right on too. Since almost anything can be bagged with the first shot this has been something that I have tried to keep track of.

Over the years I have tried just about everything in bore preparation. I have all the chemicals most do and compounds along with an Outers Foul Out kit.

At the moment I have the most confidence in cleaning with a mild "solvent" such as Hoppes 9 and a brush followed by a Rem Clean and of course wiping it out. My current theory is that strong chemicals such as Sweets leave a rough surface in the bore that is not like a fouled bore nor one thats smoothed in it's cleaning process. This is all just theory but something that I am satisfied with.

When a bore gets really loaded up I do use Sweets etc but then just wipe it with Rem Clean.

I have had some of these rifles with the orginal bores for over 40 years and it's obvious that they are going to outlast me.

Here are two 3 shot groups fired at 100 yds last week from a fouled bore that I have used for varminting since 1961.

[
So, perhaps I'm missing "Why?" a person would think they need more shots.[/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------

It may be true that most folks don't hunt in situations where they shoot more than one animal in rapid succession. But, some folks do. They probably do not always have the opportunity to clean the barrel between shots, and then where the next shots go does become important to the job at hand.

Then, of course, hunting is not the only use of rifles, either.

At any rate, that was not the subject of this thread. The subject was an inq1iry as to WHY some RIFLES need to be fouled before they settle down to shooting consistently. (Barrels? No, rifles.)

While it is easy to say it needs to be "fixed", if the cause(s) of the phenomenon is/are not known, that fixing may be more expensive or difficult that would otherwise be necessary.

Do you have anything to contribute to the discussion about WHY the phenomenon occurs? Or do you just want to criticize your fellow posters because they don't happen to see things the same way you do?

I had my projectiles moly-coated by Neeco.
Should I be using a different cleaning technique with the coating?
Thanks,
Bob

quote:

Originally posted by B Edwards:
I had my projectiles moly-coated by Neeco. Should I be using a different cleaning technique with the coating? ...

Hey Bob, I was just down at Norton today visiting a family member.
---

I Moly Coat my own Bullets and have for a good number of years. Here the trick is to make sure you get the "Carbon Ring" cleaned from a short distance just ahead of the Casemouth, without removing all the Moly you have laid down in the barrel.

I clean each 6-9 shots using Hoppe's BenchRest fluid and a regular old Brass Brush. I use an eyedropper to put some in the muzzle and some onto the Brush and give it one in-and-out stroke for each Bullet that went through. And then spray the Brush off with some kind of cheap Carb or Brake Cleaner and set it aside to dry.

Then I use a "tight" Paper Patch on a Flat Tipped Jag. I make the Paper Patches from either White or Blue Paper Shop Towels which hold together better than the Paper Towels made for the home. The Paper Patch allows you to feel if the Carbon Ring is gone better than a Cotton Patch.

Then I run another dry Paper Patch into the Bore to get it pre-formed to the Bore. Remove it and put some Moly Grease on the Patch and give the Bore a few strokes. And finish up with one or two more dry Patches to remove any excess lube.

If you do not put some kind of "Lube" in the Bore, it will attract moisture and begin rust beneath the Moly which is different to the "Battery Condition" I mentioned earlier.

I also re-clean the Bore anytime my firearms leave the house whether they get fired or not. But of course everyone knows to do that.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
...Do you have anything to contribute to the discussion about WHY the phenomenon occurs? ...

Hey AC, Good "suggestion" to get back on track for Jan.

Hey Jan, Are you interested in using your rifle for Bench Rest or for Hunting? If Hunting, how many shots do you normally take at Game?

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
... Or do you just want to criticize your fellow posters because they don't happen to see things the same way you do?

I'd first "suggest" you find some of the 150mg Zantac to prevent an Ulcer.

And my second "suggestion" would be for you to eat an entire box of Pitted Prunes. Then by the second day your largest problem should be gone.

Hot Core,
Best luck with the family member. Hope you survived our great drivers and constant highway work.
Thanks for the great pointers!
Bob

quote:

Originally posted by B Edwards:
... Best luck with the family member. ...

Thank you. Looks good right now, just a little reaction to one of the medicines.

quote:

Originally posted by B Edwards:
... Hope you survived our great drivers and constant highway work. Thanks for the great pointers!

In reverse order, you are welcome.

I hear you about the roads. It seems they have decided to do the I-71 repairs on the weekends which makes good sense. It is a bit inconvenient to use some of the "old roads", but they are scenic. Came back from Norton on River Road and it is as beautiful as it was 40 years ago. Came Hwy 22 one time and the same old twists and turns from my youth are still right there. Hwy 146 and Westport Road have really developed during the time I was away.

Maybe we can meet down at Knob Creek and do some shooting when I get this one back on their feet.

Townsend Whelen advocated knowing exactly where the first shot from a cold, cleaned bore is going to go, and to zero a hunting rifle for this specific first-shot POI. He referred to this as "the sniper's zero", but obviously the idea has as much application to hunting as to sniping rifles.

Hey folks,
Thank you very much for your input in this thread. Interesting to see how others 'take over' the conversation and mention things that had less to do with the subject in question. I thank Alberta Canuck who said: At any rate, that was not the subject of this thread. The subject was an inquiry as to WHY some RIFLES need to be fouled before they settle down to shooting consistently.
Hot Core: I am an outdoorwriter here in Holland and actually I got this question of 'Why?' of a reader of our magazine and I had no apropriate answer at hand. So I asked you in the US if you could put some light in this mysterious phenomenon. I am a hunter, no benchrest shooter, be it, that I test my handloadrounds at the bench. Normally I do not clean after every shot after a hunt, our climate does not make that strictly necessary.
I think I go with Digital Dan, Perforator, BigRX and Dutch (what's in a name?), but as I said, I never saw very much differences in speed with my first shot. Pertaining to Perforator: If this is true, you should see a higher muzzlevelocity, pressure is up with more friction.
I think it is the difference in vibration and friction, may be due to temperature. Everyone who reloads knows, that tiny differences in loads, in bulletjump, in brass, in primers can make huge bigger or smaller groups. Every rifle should be tested in this aspect of first cold (or warm) shot and fouling. Right conclusion?
Anyway, thank you.
Jan M.

Having read through all the above I'm still a bit confused. As a hunter I know the importance of knowing exactly where the first shot will go from a cold, clean barrel. Now however, as I get older, most of my rifle shooting is from the bench with a small bore (.22/.243 etc.). Considering accuracy, consistency, and barrel life as primary factors, just what is the optimum method to care for my rifle barrels?

quote:

Originally posted by Jan:
Hey folks,
Thank you very much for your input in this thread. Interesting to see how others 'take over' the conversation and mention things that had less to do with the subject in question.

Hey Jan, That is the way it works on this Board. We can join a Thread and stay strictly to the topic, or drift around a bit. More like a group of Hunters sitting together talking rather than a classroom.

quote:

...I think it is the difference in vibration and friction, ... Every rifle should be tested in this aspect of first cold (or warm) shot and fouling. Right conclusion?...

I agree with the vibration and friction being different. I would phrase it as the friction is different and due to that, the barrel vibration(Harmonic) is changed. And since the Harmonic has changed, there is a very high probability that the Bullet will be exiting the muzzle at a different point on the Harmonic which changes the group. So, I believe you are on the right track there.

Concerning, "Every rifle should be tested in this aspect of first cold (or warm) shot and fouling.", I'd say maybe and then again maybe not. In "my" situation, I'm only interested in Final Load Testing from a cold, totally clean, lightly lubed barrel. The initial shot is of great importance to me.

A second shot is also of interest, but only if it indicates the group is significantly opening. In that situation, I would focus on some 3-shot groups until I figured out what was wrong, or re-develop the Load.

In five decades of hunting, I can count "second shots" on one hand. If the second one does not make a noticable change in the Games stature or movement, there is no need for me to be taking a third shot because something is seriously wrong with the firearm or cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by Jan:
Interesting to see how others 'take over' the conversation and mention things that had less to do with the subject in question.
Jan M.

So sorry I/we got off the track. Maybe this happens when no one knows the answer? After reading all above I for one am none the wiser.
However I had a good read of other peoples opinion, and you lost nothing except maybe some time reading.

So a question occured to me, these people with rifles that act up re fouling, has anyone tried cleaning thoroughly with a solvent that only removes powder and not copper, to see if that makes any difference?
Or maybe they clean just enough to shift fouling around the bore and leave it in patches?

And if it is caused as by your summary, why do I have both a very light, and also a heavy barrel, one stainless, one black, one bedded and free floated, the other not, which don't throw shots around?
I thought it may be some traces of oil/solvent left in the bore, but then Hotcore? even leaves some in his.
John.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeMichalski:
Having read through all the above I'm still a bit confused.
Quote.


** Join the club, and welcome.

Quote.
Considering accuracy, consistency, and barrel life as primary factors, just what is the optimum method to care for my rifle barrels?

There have been quite a few posts lately about barrel cleaning, and there is apparently no known optimum method.
Apparently the spray cleaners work and help save using a rod too often. (if one can be used too often)
Butch's Bore Shine also claims to not need much "scrubbing".
I always clean after shooting, even just one shot. First I run some Hoppies No.9 thru. For a light clean I can then just leave the rifle muzzle down and wipe it out before shooting.
If some tightish patches keep comming out dirty, in goes some more No.9. If it's real persistant I may do a light scrubing with No.9 on a bronze brush, until I get on top of it.

If the fouling is more copper than powder I may give it a hurry up with Butch's or Sweets, but neither protect from rust.
So my bores are usually soaking in No.9 between shoots.
One thing I do I've never heard of others doing is that I use an old bronze brush wrapped in a small strip of cotton as a Jag, and when the bore seems clean, if I pull this patch back thru the bore, the rag shows even more smudges, for a while. Lastly before fireing I wipe out the chamber with a tight patch.

Cleaning methods can be quite diverse, as to type of rod etc. but I use anything carefully and with a bore guide, and keep the muzzle down at all times so the cleaners go down the bore and not into the action.
If you repost say in the gunsmith section you may get a few more answers.
John.

I read all of the posts more out of curiosity than anything else!

I have a 7mm RM that with 160gr Barnes XLC's won't shoot to the same POI when cleaned between shots. After several rounds (6-8) it shoots very well. I can take it out with a dirty bore and fire one shot each day into the same group. If I clean it, the next shot will be outside the group. Cold or hot doesn't make as much difference.

To confuse things, I have a .338 WM that is the opposite. It shoots the first 10 or so perfectly consitant and gets worse as it gets dirty.

In the 7mm it's not as much an issue with standard bullets. In the .338 the Barnes X shot the same as the standard bullets. These observations have been with several brands and weights in each rifle.

I don't at this point have any answers to this question. What I do have is a safe full of rifles that have some peculiararities!( Is that spelled right? )
I wonder why the same twist rate barrel, at the same velocities, will seem to have a preference in bullets of the same weight and nearly the same shape.

quote:

Originally posted by Jan:
So I asked you in the US if you could put some light in this mysterious phenomenon. "

Jan M.

First of all, I think we all neglected to offer an official "welkom". Second, this is really an international site, not a US site. It is sponsored by Saeed, from the UAE (oh, and if I haven't said so lately, thanks, Saeed!). There's lots of shooters that hang out here, from all populated continents.

But, pull up a chair, and stay a while. We can always use another hard-headed Dutchman. Marty and I try to keep our reputation up (down?), but we can always use one more. Dutch.