Thank you for your replies! Mbogo, great minds think alike! I had already spoken to Cliff about reboring to .303 and then rechecked the case dimensions and found that the 6.5 is slightly fatter near the shoulder than the 303, which blew that idea out of the water. I wanted to keep it in an appropriate caliber for the vintage rifle that it is, so the wildcat route is out also although it would be no more trouble to do and reload for than its current chambering, or the .375 for that matter! I have several other wildcats, so I'm no stranger there! To me, this rifle just resonates with history and I want to keep it "in the era". I looked into getting it relined, but the slim barrel precluded that. Cliff said he cannot take in any new work until after july, so I have some time to order a chambering reamer and dies. Thanks for the link on A&N, I had no idea anyone kept their records! I will investigate this weekend.
Washougalchris, My 6.5x53R is on a Steyr model 1892 mannlicher action and has a pistol grip stock with horn forend and gripcap. The usual 3 leaf express sights and barrel mounted swivel. If you saw the article in Rifle magazine a few months ago by Ross Seyfried about letting a lady friend hunt with his favorite 6.5, the gun in the pictures could be mines twin! The gun was purchased at last years Houston gun show and came in a well worn makers canvas and leather case. Inside the lid is a leather label reading
John Macpherson
The Sporting Stores
Inverness
Practical
Gunmakers
Cartridge loaders
Fishing tackle makers
Taxidermists
Grams "Angler" Estab 1887. phone 168

It came with several clips, an oil bottle, cleaning rod and leather pouch containing the brushes and jags. It also had a leather muzzle cover that attaches to the sling swivel eye. There is a can of gun grease that reads "Prices Rangoon Jelly" with faded advice that it is good for all firearms and swords! The case needs many repairs such as straps which I have made and I am makinf new retaining straps for the handle. The canvas exterior is a very faded green and has the initials C.S.D. on it and these initials are engraved on the bolt handle. I bought brass from Buffalo arms and used my 6.5x54 dies to load it and used 160 grain hornadys and it shot to point of aim and very nice(for me!) open sight groups of 1-1/2"@100 yds. Other than proofs, there are no other markings to indicate maker on the gun. The other Steyr that I have is similar, but has a straight grip stock. I may yet do a chamber/bore cast and try the oversize hornadys that Graff has, but when a gunsmith friend inspected the bore with his borescope, he said it was as heavily worn as he had ever seen and that there was cleaning rod wear at the muzzle that was evident even after someone had bobbed the barrel back even with the foresight. That is what got me looking to restore the gun to shooting condition by possibly reboring. I appreciate the feedback very much and if I can be of help, please advise! Thanks again, Lee.

Lee,

Pictures, we want pictures !!!!!

Your case sounds similar to mine, but you were lucky to get the accessories with it. Here are a couple of photos of my case.

Jim

Jim, very nice! Your case is in much better condition than mine. I see that yours has the usual D-ring strap damage. I bought some leatherworking tools and I am learning to do these repairs for my vintage cases. My wife is going to try to help me learn how to download and post pictures this weekend, so maybe I will be able to show you my rifles. I might dig out my Vickers .318 WR for the shoot also! I'm jealous of your double, love that craftsmanship! I'm off to the big Houston show this morning, there is usually several dealers there with English guns. No telling what I might have to smuggle into the house this afternoon! Lee.

You know, I've been thinking of chambering a Contender barrel for the flanged (rimmed) version of this round. Should be a hoot. - dan

Hobie,

I am not Dan, but I would like to make a comment on your post. If you are referring to the 375x2.5 Flanged NE rather than the 375 Flanged Magnum NE, then yes the Contender should work. The 375 JDJ is a similar cartridge that operates at even higher pressure than the 375x2.5, and has been used safely in the Contender for years.

It should not be too much of a problem to rechamber a 375 Win barrel for this cartridge. In fact now you have me thinking (not a good thing usually ), I may have to try and find a 375 Win caliber rifle or carbine length Contender barrel and give rechambering a try.

Jim

If you mean the .375 Rimless Nitro Express x 2-1/4 (which was chambered in the M-1910 Mannlicher Schoenauer), I have that gun. That is also known as the 9.5x57 MS and the 9.5x56 MS caliber. I have formed cases for it and developed some reloads in it. If that is what you want information on, I can post that plus the loading information in the Mannlicher Collectors Assn. newsletter. However, there are other .375 Nitro Express cartridges out there and I don't want to waste either of our time if my assumption is wrong.

Jim,

Yep, the .375 Flanged NE 2�". I would think that pressures would be right up there in the 40-45K CUP range. I think that is at the ragged edge for the Contender.

Hobie,



As stated above there were actually two pressure levels in the factory 375x2.5 Flanged Nitro Express. The most common was 14.5 tonnes per square inch. The other was 17.0 tonnes per square inch. While there is no direct conversion from TPSI to PSI or CUP(there are too many variables in measurement methods and materials between the old copper crusher method and newer measuring systems), it is generally accepted that this would be in the 35,000 to 43,000 psi range (even modern CIP standards for the 375 Flanged Magnum are only 47,137 psi, but the case head diameter comes into play to affect suitability for the Contender here as you know). The upper end of this range is about what the 30/30 Winchester generates, and below the 375 JDJ, 411 JDJ, 375 Winchester, and 7x30 Waters. If you stick to the original pressure levels for the 375x2.5 you should be fine for a Contender.



I do have a pistol length 375 Win barrel for my Contender (as well as 7x30 Waters, 30 Herrett, 300 savage, 7 mm International Rimmed, etc), and they have given no trouble at factory pressure levels.



One word of caution though, some of the loads that have been published on the internet do exceed these levels! These hotter loads might be pushing things a bit with the Contender as you surmise.



Jim





Post Script;



I just checked your web page since making the above post, and would say that your 38/55 255 grain loads that are generating around 2,000 fps (Rl 7) would be very comparable to the 375x2.5 factory loads pressure wise (it calculates to about 44,000 PSI depending on seating depth). In fact you should be able to exceed 2,100+ fps with a 270 grain bullet, and 2,000 fps with a 300 grain bullet at this pressure level with a 375x2.5 with a rifle length barrel.



Jim

OK, now I'm really getting interested. I have to find a 375 Contender barrel first, and then dig up a reamer. I think this is a do-able idea, as long as you don't go crazy with reload pressures. Mmmmmm, flanged 375 pistols, as Homer would say. - Dan

Jim,

Thanks for the detailed reply!

I AM aware of the breach thrust issues but was not aware of the actual pressure standards for the cartridge aside from knowing that there had been 2 standards.

I was a bit concerned as the .303/.30-40/.375NE2�" case head is a bit larger than the .30-30. However, you are right that the lower pressures should be usable. I just don't want to create a time-bomb as that guy who rechambered a Contender barrel to .35 Whelen did.

As you may have noted, almost all my barrels are carbine/rifle barrels as opposed to pistol length. I do like the old, rimmed/flanged cartridges. I am also becoming a real fan of the .375 bore.

Dan,

If you find an extra 375 Win Contender carbine/rifle length barrel that I can buy, I will split the reamer cost with you . It should also work with a 38/55 barrel, but I would think that these might be harder to come by (how about it Hobie, want to rechamber that 38/55 ?).



Jim

Jim,

NO WAY! I LOVE, and I mean LOVE this barrel. It's a Bullberry and works as intended. Even with the aperture sight it gets 1-1�" at 100 (with loads from 1300 to 2000 fps!). It actually does better when I've got a scope mounted, and... I don't have to remove the peep (well not completely, I can leave the base on.). This one barrel I could NEVER get rid of.

It is also one reason I'm so interested in the .375NE2�"...

You guys are not going to believe this, but a friend called this afternoon and asked if I would like to buy a Ruger #3 in 375 Win. Other than a few minor scratches on the stock it was in about 97% condition, and the price was too good to pass up. This would be a straight forward conversion to 375x2.5 Flanged NE, but that brings me to the question of whether to alter a nice #3 in a less common caliber. Decisions, decisions .

Jim

I'll keep an eye out for an extra barrel Mbogo, but with that kind of luck, I think you'll see one before me. I would rechamber that #1 in a heartbeat. - Dan

HARRY O

I just came across your post, below. I have a take-down MS in 9.5x57, which I've only shot lead bullets out of so far. I'm looking for some loading data to replicate the original factory loads (270 jacketed RN). I'm aware of the recommended loads with IMR3031 but I'm not sure that powder is readily available in the UK. Do you have any other information?

TIA

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by Harry O:
If you mean the .375 Rimless Nitro Express x 2-1/4 (which was chambered in the M-1910 Mannlicher Schoenauer), I have that gun. That is also known as the 9.5x57 MS and the 9.5x56 MS caliber. I have formed cases for it and developed some reloads in it. If that is what you want information on, I can post that plus the loading information in the Mannlicher Collectors Assn. newsletter. However, there are other .375 Nitro Express cartridges out there and I don't want to waste either of our time if my assumption is wrong.

ats: This is the information I have from the Mannlicher Collectors newsletter No 2.

270gr jacketed bullet, Norma N201 powder, 46.0gr, velocity 2250fps

270gr jacketed bullet, IMR3031 powder, 45.0gr, velocity 2250fps

270gr jacketed bullet, IMR4895 powder, 47.5gr, velocity 2250fps

270gr jacketed bullet, IMR4064 powder, 46.0gr, velocity 2150fps

I use the 270gr Hornady round-nose, jacketed, soft-point bullet. I very closely matches the profile a handful of original factory loaded cartridges I have. I have tried the 220gr Hornady flat-nose, jacketed, soft-point bullet (I also have a couple of .375 Winchester rifles), but it would not feed no matter how I manipulated the bolt. I also tried the Speer 235gr spire-point, jacketed, soft-point. It fed better, but certainly not smoothly. The 1910 M-S was made for a 270gr to 300gr round-nose.

I have worked mostly with the IMR4064 powder. Through calculations and comparisons with similar cartridges, I decided that I could go a little higher than the 46.0gr listed above and still be under the 45,000psi limit for the gun. I have shot it with 48.0gr of IMR4064 (after working it up from 36.0gr) with a 270gr Hornady with no signs of excessive pressure. The velocity with my 19.7" barrel is 2,160fps. I believe that the M-S's with 23.6" barrels would probably be nearer to the velocities were listed in the newsletter.

I have also experimented with the Lyman 375167 cast lead bullet, but it does not have a gas-check so I have been limited to 1,600 to 1,800fps (depending on the hardness) before accuracy started going downhill. It is just about the same shape as the RN Hornady. I have a couple of other 38-55 gas-check cast bullet moulds (375248 and 375449), but they don't feed either.

BTW, I had to add a lace-on leather recoil pad on the rear of the buttstock. I did not want to butcher the stock for a permanent recoil pad.

Over the years, I've owned quite a lot of this genre of rifles, in

9.5x57 (375 NE rimless)
.375x2-1/2" Flanged
.375 H&H Flanged Magnum
.375 Winchester
.38-55 Winchester
and others.

They were in WR double rifle, M/S rifles and carbines, Mauser bolt action rifles (both flanged and rfimless), Dan'l Fraser TD bolt actions, Mannlicher-Steyr rifles and carbines, and a variety of single shot rifles. I only mention the Magnum because with the flange, it is easy to load it down to the same levels as the others without any problems, and it makes a good all-round double when some full-power loads are carried as well..


Based on personal experience, this is my current thought:


For the North American shooter, I'd suggest a different but very similar chambering. Brass, though not common in Rimmed form is far easier to get than .375x2-1/2" Flanged, takes Boxer primers, and seems more sturdy (designed for higher pressures), to boot. Norma brass is still available, too. That cartridge is either the 8x57-R case necked up to take .375"diameter bullets, or the 7x57-R case similarly expanded. I currently have a Ruger No. 1 in thia "9.5x57-R" chambering, and am throughly happy with it.

One of the many nice things about it is that when cut with the flanged (Rimmed) 9.5x57-R chamber, it handily uses both flanged and rimless cases. The same extractor extracts and ejects both vey reliably. With the Ruger extractor, the powder chamber part of the case is all contained within the barrel, so there is no untoward expansion of the case head even when using rimless cases. I don't doubt a person could load hot enough to cause problems, but with the 270 grain Hornady bullets I prefer to use, I've never found the need to go that hot.

And besides, any case can vbe overloaded in any chamber, so that is no big news flash.

Anyway, if you're thinking of re-cutting a Ruger barrel, let me recommend using an 8x57 reamer with a . pilot which fits your bore, and a neck reamer for just about any .375. If you want a good, handy round, and don't want to buy a special reamer for the job, it might just tickle your fancy.

Harry

Thanks for that information, very useful. I should be able to get one of those powders (might even have some 4895).

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by Harry O:
ats: This is the information I have from the Mannlicher Collectors newsletter No 2.

270gr jacketed bullet, Norma N201 powder, 46.0gr, velocity 2250fps

270gr jacketed bullet, IMR3031 powder, 45.0gr, velocity 2250fps

270gr jacketed bullet, IMR4895 powder, 47.5gr, velocity 2250fps

270gr jacketed bullet, IMR4064 powder, 46.0gr, velocity 2150fps

I use the 270gr Hornady round-nose, jacketed, soft-point bullet. I very closely matches the profile a handful of original factory loaded cartridges I have. I have tried the 220gr Hornady flat-nose, jacketed, soft-point bullet (I also have a couple of .375 Winchester rifles), but it would not feed no matter how I manipulated the bolt. I also tried the Speer 235gr spire-point, jacketed, soft-point. It fed better, but certainly not smoothly. The 1910 M-S was made for a 270gr to 300gr round-nose.

I have worked mostly with the IMR4064 powder. Through calculations and comparisons with similar cartridges, I decided that I could go a little higher than the 46.0gr listed above and still be under the 45,000psi limit for the gun. I have shot it with 48.0gr of IMR4064 (after working it up from 36.0gr) with a 270gr Hornady with no signs of excessive pressure. The velocity with my 19.7" barrel is 2,160fps. I believe that the M-S's with 23.6" barrels would probably be nearer to the velocities were listed in the newsletter.

I have also experimented with the Lyman 375167 cast lead bullet, but it does not have a gas-check so I have been limited to 1,600 to 1,800fps (depending on the hardness) before accuracy started going downhill. It is just about the same shape as the RN Hornady. I have a couple of other 38-55 gas-check cast bullet moulds (375248 and 375449), but they don't feed either.

BTW, I had to add a lace-on leather recoil pad on the rear of the buttstock. I did not want to butcher the stock for a permanent recoil pad.

ats: You may be interested in these pictures I just took of my M-1910 takedown Mannlicher Schoenauer. It also shows the exact copy of a Lyman 36 peepsight that was made a few years ago. Cut peepsight. It moves back and forth when the bolt is cycles. Hope I printed these right.

http://gallery.sixshootercommunity.com/displayimage.php...m=lastup&cat=0&pos=0

http://gallery.sixshootercommunity.com/displayimage.php...m=lastup&cat=0&pos=1

http://gallery.sixshootercommunity.com/displayimage.php...m=lastup&cat=0&pos=2

Harry

Nice rifle, somewhat more original than mine, but some restoration is planned... Do you know if it is possible to fit scope mounts to a take-down MS?

Andrew

Looks like my pictures are moving. Oh well.

I di not know if it is possible to mount scope mounts on a take-down rifle. However, I don't see any reason why a scope could not be mounted on mine.

The barrel and receiver are one piece. Anything attached to the receiver should stay with it. In pulling off the stock, it goes down, away from where the scope mount would be. There should not be any interference there.

All I know for sure is that scope mounts are even more expensive than the Lyman 36 peepsight copy. And that is without the scope.