Out of curiosity, I thought of trying to see what we keep hearing about the effects of different primers on both accuracy and velocity.

The RWS primer is supposed to be mild, and the Federal 215 is of course a hot Magnum primer.

The Federal 210M was used as standard in this cartridge.

Here are our results.

All groups are at 100 yards.

Very interesting. Thank you.

What prime was the most consistent?
From my view it looks like the RWS and the Fed. 210 ran neck and neck.
That was some good shooing.
Tell us a little about your technique
Thanks /Dave

Great stuff ! What type rest was being used? roger

Why do you gentlemen have to ask such difficult questions

We have several front rests - all from Sinclair.

The rear rest is a Bald Eagle leather rest, which I have filled with lead shot so it does not move easily.

I have no idea which front rest I actually used, as they keep moving them around on and off the shooting bench.

My technique is the good old fashioned one where I make sure the rifle is resting well on both rests, cheek against the stock, left hand on the forearm, and gently squeezing off the trigger.


I understand that bench rest shooters tend to just touch off a very light trigger.

I have tried that, but never worked for me.

I suppose we tend to shoot a lot of large rifles, and have learnt a sort of self preserving technique like this by holding the rifle tightly.


The interesting part is that from previous reports, it was stated that the RWS 5341 is the weakest, while the Federal 215 we all know is a strong Magnum primer we use in all our large cases.

Looking at the results above, it would seem that is the case, but to the extent that we really need to worry about it too much in this case size.

Velocity was slightly higher in most loads with the Federal 215.

Accuracy seems better in most with the Federal 210M.

I am not sure what results would be in larger case.

I do know for a fact that using the 210M in a 300 RUM produced slight hang fire practically all the time.

In the 700 Nitro Express, we could not get the Federal 215 to ignite the powder?? And sometimes got hang fire.

Not really very fully in that cartridge at all.

We solved that problem by putting 2-3 grains of BULLSEYE under the powder charge, and that solved the problem completely.

Thanks for this comparison! Very interesting and valuable.

Saeed: Very interesting. Thank you for sharing with us!

Jiri

I might do another test with the same primers, but in a bigger case.

I'll keep stocking the 210 for my little ones.
Thanks for the information.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I might do another test with the same primers, but in a bigger case.

Now, how big will you dare to go on the next test?
We usually say use a magnum primer with over 70 grains of the extruded powders, eh?
And lesser amounts of ball powders seem to shoot better with hotter primers.

So how big a charge and with what powders?
Decisions, decisions ...

There is more than one way to skin a wildcat.
Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

Well, logic, and my own experience, would tell me that we have to pick a reasonably sized case, without going too far where we actually know the results are not desirable.

I know for a fact that the 210 is not suitable for the 300 RUM case.

So I have to decide on something smaller, where someone might have to use standard primer when a Magnum is not available.

I think the 300 Winchester Magnum might be a good choice, but I am open to suggestions.

A few months ago I did some loading for a friend's .300 Win. I have loaded for my own .300 H&H but the Winchester was new to me. I started with book starting loads using CCI 200 primers, and got a couple of hang-fires. At first I thought the trigger was screwed up so I checked everything and repeated the process, and got another hang-fire. I duplicated the load using Fed. 215 primers and had no further problems. This really surprised me. I didn't think the primer would make that much difference. I have used Win. WLR primers in the H&H with no problems.
Keep experimenting, I will be very interested in what you find. Also keep track of the maximum velocity deviation with the different primers. That may (or may not) give some indication of how well they are working.

C.G.B.

Yep, the 300 WinMag would be a good one.
Use same bullets as in the .308 WCF test.
The powder charges from 60 to 80 grains?
Watch accuracy and velocity spread.

I personally would consider using the .338 Win. with a 250 grain bullet at velocities in the same range as your .308 test. roger

FWIW...Sometime back in the early 70's(???) I did some similar primer testing with a 22-250 with large primers and with the 6mmBR small primer case. I worked up the most accurate load using a CCI BR primer(I think, can't remember for certain now), 53 gr Hornady HP and H380.

Then, using the large rifle primered case I tried 4 other primers all standard LR primers, WW, REM, CCI, BR and the BR primer as a control. The control stayed a bughole, the other three gave various groups to slightly over ~1.00". I also tried other, available at that time, BR primers.

So I wondered just what would happen to the groups if I played with the powder amount. By increasing/decreasing the powder amount in small increments I could reduce/increase the size of the groups down to bugholes for all the various primers.

The same thing happened when I went to the small primer case and a similar thing happened when I tried different powders AND bullets, not to mention seating depths. The process repeated when I ran out of one brand/lot of primers and opened another box/lot, new box of bullets or new can of powder or new lot of brass.

The bench rest shooters and long range shooters all understand this "happening" for certain if they are to keep winning and many, MANY other high accuracy shooting platforms do the same.

All the data and targets are long gone but the results basically said primers have a large effect on accuracy, pressure and velocity.

I think this phenomenon isn't well understood by the average reloading public or shooters at large and is the basis many forum arguments/dustups, as they are not interested in wringing out the Nth degree of accuracy to plonk their yearly deer/elk/etc.

ANYONE who wants to understand a small part of this can just take a look at the cartridge reloading section here on AR. Variations in accuracy can be seen just by looking at the changes in velo and accuracy as you run down the various powder amount/bullet weight and brand changes in EVERY cartridge.

Layne Simpson did a similar test way back in Shooting times, and I have mentioned this a few time here on AR and on other forums, usually with a dustup ensuing.

In any event, the targets speak for themselves and being on AR will do a better job of explanation and education than a few works of "this is what I did back in the day."

LUCK

Saeed - railgun, machine rest or benchrest?

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:
Saeed - railgun, machine rest or benchrest?

All our shooting here is bench rest.

I have found a number of different primers, including the following.

Remington 9 1/2 Magnum
CCI BR 2
CCI LR Magnum
Winchester LR
Winchester LR Magnum
RWS LR
Federal 210M
Federal 215.

I will try both Ball and extruded powders.

I think I will use the Steyer 08 rifle for this test.

Fantastic!!

This is one of the types of things that has kept us all so interested for years. A hell of a lot of work went into that, I know. Thanks for the experiment.

And for what it's worth, I think the .300 Win Mag would be a reasonable comparison due to the case capacity increase and also the practicality/familiarity with so many of us.

Don't underestimate a possible love affair between rifle and primer !?! I do happen to have experienced it among my rifle collection.

I'll explain :

- I own two .300 Win Mag rifles : a Blaser R98 which insists on CCI 250 primers and doubles its groups with other magnum primers. Then I have that Rem 700 Sendero which doesn't make a difference between primer brand ; I even tried mixing CCI 250 and WLRM with no influence on group or POI ?!? Better still, my Sauer 202 has 2 barrels. One in 7x64 that insists on CCI 250 to ignite N 160, a standard WLR producing elongated vertical groups. The very same rifle with its .30-06 barrel, also with N 160 powder groups 5 in one hole with WLR primers. Same rifle and scope, same calibre class, same N 160 powder with close enough loads and ballistics, twin bullets : .284/160 g and .308/165 g Sierra GK, go figure...

Well, this is going to take some time, so I thought I might as well start on it.

I only fired one group, and the fun has already started.

With the RWS primer and Winchester WMR, 75 grains, I two hang fires out the 5 shots fired.

I will make a note of both the extreme spread and standard deviation, as well as the velocities.

What I thought I would do is pick a range of powders that are suitable for the the 300 Winchester Magnum, from the fast ones to the very slow one.

Both extruded and ball powders will be used.

From these I thought I will pick two loads for each powder.

One from the lower recommended range and one from close to maximum.

First powder I am trying is the Winchester WMR. I know it is not made any more, but I have quite a bit of it, and it is a ball powder suitable for this cartridge.

I have picked 75 and 80 grains as my loads for this powder.

I have shot the 75 grain load with the standard large rifle primers that I have.

RWS 5341 3051 fps. Extreme spread was 41 fps. Standard deviation was 19 fps. 2 rounds had hang fire. This is from the Oehler 35P chronograph, which is the standard one we use for all our testing.

CCI BR2 3045 fps. ES 24. SD 9. Of the 4 standard large rifle primers, this one has the best group so far with this load. I have not measured the targets, as they are still on the board down range.

Winchester standard LR 3044 fps. ES 45. SD 21

Federal 210M 3050 fps. Es 46. SD 18.



The Steyer 08 rifle I am using is brand new.

It has had about 200 rounds through it, all were S&B 180 grain soft points.

It took me two days to get the barrel cleaned up from copper residue.

Glad all our own bullets are Molly coated, as this definitely cuts down on the cleaning part.

Excellent!
Ball powders need magnum primers, even in 400 Whelen, we have learned previously here.
And no ball powder is ThermoBalistically Insensitive (TBI).
All ball powders are ThermoBallistically Sensitive (TBS).
I use ball powders only for plinking or for getting rid of a bunch of powder in a high-volume handloading project like yours.
Thanks for all the work on your end, and all the entertainment on this end.

Rip

Here are a few results so far.

75.0 Winchester WMR.

RWS 5341
0.808". 3051 FPS. Extreme spread 41. Standard deviation 19. Two rounds had hangfire.

CCI BR2
0.253 3045. 24. 9.

Winchester WLR
0.702. 3044. 45. 21.

Federal 210M
0.708. 3050.46.18

-----------------------------------------
80.0 Winchester WMR

RWS 5341
1.134 3245.40.16

CCI BR2
0.741 3206.50.18

Win WLR
0.828 3231.43.17

Fed 210m
0.389 3206. 46. 20.
--------------------------------------------
75.0 Hodgdon H450

RWS 5341
0.922 3193. 49. 18 2 rounds had hang fire. The 3 rounds that fired normally, went in one whole of 0.135!!

CCI BR2
0.541 3173. 41. 14.

Win WLR
0.498 3167. 43. 20.

Fed 210M
0.671 3131. 27. 10

Hell of a lot of shooting!
I haven't had a mis or hangfire in the last ten thousand rounds. All CCI's.

How many primers do you buy when you stock up?

Wondered if those were your own bullets, then I see S&B's. My only experience with anything S&B has been brass and they were lousy.

Thank you sir, have fun!
George

I am using the Sierra 168 Match King bullets in all these tests.

The brass is S&B.

Thanks for the tests.
Great shooting too. Unreal!

I've used Fed. 210s and 215 for years. I use 210 in all but belted cases. For belted cases I use 215s. For double rifles I use 215s..I have no complaints..

I use 210s with ball powders like H414, WW-760 and never a complaint, and Ive uses it for years in my 7x57, 250-3000 and 30-06, get my best accuracy and velocity in these calibers. I also use www-748 in my .308 and its my highest velocity and accuracy, but Varget is so close Id call it a tie..

Ive not had ignition problems with ball powder in the above calibers, it bigger cases I can see where it might not ignite, but never used ball powder in any caliber larger than the 30-06.

My .358X.404 IMP yielded a high percentage of hang fires when using WCC 844 and 846 and WLRM primers.
Ball powder 5020 did not have any hang fires.
roger