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| Belted Magnum 'Case Bulge' | Login/Join |
| one of us |
Anyone seen this guys 'cure' for the bulge above the belt? I've ordered one and maybe I'll get a few more firings out of that expensive Norma brass... Michael | ||
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one of us |
Why not just neck size and leave the area above the belt alone? The less you work harden it, the longer it should last, right? I neck size for a Ruger #1 and, without the camming action of a bolt, have no problem chambering them. | |||
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| one of us |
The reason belted cases buldge is the chamber is too big!!!!!!! Most chambers are at the SAAMI dimension of .5135" or more just above the belt. If the chamber is not cut correctly with a SAMMI reamer (reamer not concentric with the bore) the chamber can be much larger, I have seen as much as .520". As brass runs from .506" to maybe .509" just above the belt, guess what, the brass buldges above the belt when fired. This also stretches the brass above the belt and leads to head seperations. The cure? Chamber correctly, with a correctly dimensioned reamer. My match reamers, for belted brass, are ground 0.002" above the brass diameter just above the belt. Thus, no case swelling or buldging and no head separations, provided the chamber is headspaced properly when chambering. Resizing back to small sizes accomplishes nothing other than excessive working of the brass. Its still going to expand to fit that large chamber! The story changes with big bore DGR's. Here, you want any cartridges, purchased anywhere in the world, to chamber. So, I cut the chambers to SAAMI specs, or CIP specs for European cartridges, for big bores. Chances are, the brass will be lost in the brush anyway. So, if you have a rifle built for magnum brass, and you plan on reloading many times, make sure the gun builder knows what he is doing with chamber dimensions AND knows how to properly set up a barrel in reamer in the lathe so the reamer will not cut oversized. ------------------ My Warden sometimes allows me to respond to email. NEW Address is rifles@earthlink.net ***********Jail Flash******* | |||
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| <Larry A. Willis> |
Fellow shooters, I'm the guy that designed and manufactures the new resizing die that you are talking about. I have talked to hundreds of shooters that are very familiar with "case bulge" and brass "spring back". Our web site at www.larrywillis.com is devoted to helping shooters understand and solve these problems. Our customers include the US Secret Service, professional hunting guides and top name gunsmiths from all over the world. Use caution when getting reloading information from the Internet. On other forums I have found reloading advice coming from very experienced shooters .... that have never reloaded a single box of belted magnum cartridges. We reload belted magnums for a living. Larry ------------------ | ||
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one of us |
I saw these advertisements about this alleged problem a few months back. It's still a solution for which there is no problem. I've reloaded belted cases for near 50 years and have NEVER seen such a problem. Recently most of my belted cases are custom barreled, but in the many factory chambers I've never encountered this phenomena, nor have any of my shooting friends with whom I've spoken. How can a case "bulge" so as not to chamber? Only with a defective, eccentric chamber. Totally agree with John Ricks. I typically get anywhere from 10 to 15 reloads from belted brass using domestic brass. I neck size for about 5 reloads, anneal the necks and set back the shoulder about .001"-.002" and go again. I haven't seen any "bulges". On 338 Win Mag I start with 358 Norma brass that is a bit longer in the body, size to 338 Win Mag and just barely set the shoulder back to eliminate the initial stretch. I have one batch of these handled as above, that have 18 reloads with no bulge. It's all sales hype. The "problem" doesn't need a solution. | |||
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Larry A. Willis... I do not load for the US Government, I know of no PH who use reloads, and I have never experienced this supposed "case bulge" to which you are referring. I have reloaded since the 1960's, and still do reload the .264 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag, .300 Win Mag, .300 H&H Mag, 8mm Rem Mag, and .375 H&H Mag. I have never encountered this problem... ------------------ | |||
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| <Don Martin29> |
Case bulge exists with many rifles and with all types of cartridges be they belted, rimmed or rimless. It's not really a big problem but it may bother some fussy person. But many belted cases are hunting cartridges and really should be FL sized unless the hunter is positive of 100% reliable chambering. I have not read this infomercial yet but I agree with Bob338 on many things and this is another one. | ||
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Ditto. ------------------ | |||
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eldeguello: I could NOT agree more with you. Case bulge? Barrel break in? Give ME a break! If you want to sell something, invent a problem, then sell the solution! [This message has been edited by Big Bore (edited 05-06-2002).] | |||
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I don't want a chamber that is so sloppy that it bulges my cases, guess I'm one of the fussy ones...I'd rebarrel it and use that barrel for a tent stake. Don't need those kind of problems when looking down M'Bogo throat, causes jams you know. I don't care how one breaks in a barrel, thats up to the individual, but I will suggest a new barrel be cleaned before ever firing a shot..I clean with solvent and with a J-B paste cleaner and the crap that comes out of a new barrel is awesome, I sure wouldn't want to run a bullet over it. Bottom line I like a rifle thats "right"..... ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
quote:
It does appear that you have develped a tool to solve a non-existant problem. But, I'm willing to learn if you can provide "better" information that perhaps I'm not aware of. First off, let me go through your above post and comment on it, then comment on your site. Feel free to correct me where you think I'm wrong. 1. Is what you are talking about the actual "Pressure Ring"? If so, it is on ALL cases, not just Belted cases. The "Pressure Ring" provides an excellent way to get Pressure indications, which I've used for over 4 decades. 2. If you are actually refering to the Pressure Ring, it is certainly not a problem. 3. AMEN Here I consider your site as one of those places to be careful about getting information from. 4. You will find that everywhere you go. But they are reluctant to post here due to people who actually know how to Reload following behind them and correcting their "incorrect" posts. 5. You "Reload" Belted Mags for a living. Good for you. Glad to hear someone is making a living out there in the firearms industry. As I ponder the actual use of your tool, I can see where there would be instances where some Belted Magnum cases fired in one Rifle will not fit in a different Rifle of the same caliber. I've had them myself. But, I've never experienced an instance where running those cases through a regular RCBS or Redding Full Length Sizing Die didn't correct the problem. And, the problem always seemed to be the position of the shoulder, not the Pressure Ring. So, once again, I'm at a loss to understand where an actual problem is?!?!?!?!?!? 6. I've never known a Reloader who had ANY problem reloading Belted cases that he would not have experienced on non-Belted cases. What are you talking about??? 7. Seems to be a partial-truth mixed in with some TOTALLY FALSE info. (Perhaps this is what you were warning folks about in #3 & #4.) I get the same life from Belted Mag cases that I get in any other "High Performance" calibers, so I'm at a loss trying to understand what you are talking about here. If the "Dies" are improperly adjusted for Belted Cartridges, they will have short case life, but that is also true for ANY case. 8. Another partial truth. The whole truth is a regular Die Set when adjusted properly will "Resize" a Belted case enough to work perfectly well. 9. All cases create a "Pressure Ring" from the initial firing. It is resized enough, even when Partial-Full Length Resizing is used, to "re-align" that portion of the case for easy chambering. 10. TOTALLY WRONG!!! 11. Must be embarrassing to make a box full that won't fit the rifle. But, from what I've seen over the years, it has nothing at all to do with the Pressure Ring.
------------------ [This message has been edited by Hot Core (edited 05-07-2002).] | |||
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| One of Us |
You can hava very small problem with belted brass such as Norma (unless they have changed) in that the solid head does not extend up to just above the belt. When the case is fired there will be/can be a few thou gap between the edge of the belt and the chamber. This will with some belted cases allow the case to expand. Now if your die does not size just in front of the belt, then it becomes difficult/impossible to ressize ammo so that you have consistent headspace as in some situations the case will "bind" on the section of the case just in front of the belt. This can give a different point of impact to those cases that do not "bind" and hence affect group size. Most shooters wont actually see the problem and for a couple of reasons. Firstlt calibers like the 7mm and 30 cal magnums (surely the most widely used belted cases) havea tendency to shoot different loads and variations in loading such as headspace to the same point of impact. On the other hand, calibers with a small case capacity for the bore size such as 375 H&H, which do tend to shoot to different points with load variations, are calibers where most shooters are not really testing the rifle too much. In addition most shooters are probaly using belted cases like Winchester where the solid head does extend just above the belt. Mike | |||
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I have never had such a problem with the cases of my .338WM. Brass for it is so cheap nowadays, that I reload 5 to 6 times and throw the case away. After one firing (new case) I only size the neck. Again, I have never seen that problem with my rifle. [This message has been edited by Ray, Alaska (edited 05-07-2002).] | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
I think all of us who have been loading belted cases for many years have concurred that this "bulge" is not a problem unless one has some brass that was fired in a sloppy chamber and wished to use it in a different rifle that has a less-sloppy chamber. The one problem I have encoutered with belted cases is that, at least at one time, some factories did cut some belted case chambers a little on the generous side in head-to-shoulder dimension. This caused people to set the shoulder back a little too much when resizing, leading to early case-head separations. I did this a couple of times in my early years of reloading belted cases, until I caught on to the technique of adjusting my sizing die to the point that it barely touched the shoulder of a fired case, if at all, when resizing. That's all that is necessary to reload belted cases with the same results as with non-belted cases. As a matter of fact, it is also possible to cause case-head separation problems with non-belted cases, if your full-length sizing die is a little short, or your shellholder is a little on the shallow side. Consequently, careful adjustment is necessary for resizing of ALL bottleneck cases!! | ||
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| <bigcountry> |
I have experienced it. It was due to the chamber being made sloppy. Some of my friends you reload belted mags with cheaper factory gun have experenced it. People I know with quality barrels don't seem to have this problem. So instead of fixing case, I recommend fixing the chamber. I have come to the conclution that factory guns are crap. I know that a low percentage are defects, but I seem to get a good chunk of them. | ||
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Larry - If you're still here, are you saying the bulge, if one exists, is caused by the die's inability to size completely to the belt, and the brass is actually being "formed" (pushed?) down there by the die? I'm not a major fan of belted magnums, but, I've loaded a pile of them over the years. I load for 2 different 7RMAG's and some of the brass has been loaded 5 or 6 times, and I've never seen this problem. Likewise the 300 W'by, 338 WMAG and 350 RMAG, although I haven't reloaded their brass that often. As noted, it seems to be a solution to a nonexistant problem. R-WEST ------------------ | |||
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| <Larry A. Willis> |
quote: Fellow Shooters, Take a look at the "Questions & Answers" section of my website and you will find what you need to know about reloading belted magnums. This "bulge" problem does not affect all brass in all chambers, but it does exist. If you haven't run into it .... fine. There are a lot of shooters out there (with over 30 years experience) that have. I've reloaded more than a dozen different calibers over the last 30 years myself. I'm sure there are reloading problems that I have not experienced myself. Larry ------------------ | ||
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I've usually noticed the body just forward of the belt actually being less affected by case expansion than that well forward of it. I've always assumed this was due to the thicker brass being more inclined to contract more after pressure falls off. Still, if you're the guy who is having a problem, rare though it may be, everyone telling you your problem doesn't exist isn't much help. | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
I believe I have a rough idea of what is required to reload belted cases. I have been reloading belted cases since 1960, and this experience includes making .308 Norma Magnum cases from .375 H&H brass..... [ 03-09-2003, 20:50: Message edited by: eldeguello ] | ||
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| one of us |
Guys: I'm sitting on a hundred odd once fired belted cases for a hard to find brass for caliber. Still have the factory primer in them. My die comes within about a 1/64 th or perhaps 1/32 of sizing right to the belt. It's that last little squeak which prevents them from chambering in my rifle which was factory chambered for the caliber and has a close dimensioned chamber. The fellow who shot these had a chamber that allowed that critical area to expand about .003 more than mine does. His barrel was gunsmith chambered so not all the smiths out there are fussy. They don't go in my rifle anyhow. At a replacement cast of $2.50 per unprimed case for new brass maybe the guys got something if it makes this problem go away. Shooting brass that originates from a first firing in your own rifle should not pose a problem and neither should reloads if you don't screw up. When you're on the scrounge for brass you sometimes have to take what you can get and work with it. Have to look at his site and see what he has to say. besto | |||
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Stocker~ Out of curiosity, what is the cartridge? Why not have a gunsmith set the barrel back one thread, or even two, and get rid of that problem? The gentleman is selling his die based not on sizing brass fired in another gun, but to extend life of your original new brass. Brass will spring back after firing. He accepts this and says so in his website, and we all know that IS the case. If it springs back how can it not chamber in the same chamber unless the chamber is defective, either bulged or eccentric? | |||
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| one of us |
Bob: The problem is not with my rifle. The brass was purchased at a gun show for me by my son. It was fired in some other guys rifle and it is oversize immediately in front of the belt. Most of it measures .514 or .515 and a bit. Mine comes out of my rifle at .511 +/- a bit depending on load just as John Ricks described how it should. Having got this brass I want to find out if this die will "salvage" the brass for use in a proper chamber. The sizing die just can't clean up that last bit and it won't chamber after sizing. Oh yes, caliber is 7x61 Super and the only source of it I've found in Canada so far is $50.00 a box for Norma brass. I actually got loaded Norma ammo out of the US for $30 Can. from OWS.That same ammo purchased here usually starts at *0.00 and goes up depending on the degree of the dealers avarice. I'm not in a jam for brass having nearly 150 good fitting cases on hand and it is possible to reform other cases. One gent says he uses 264 Win mag trimmed and sized direct from his sizing die. Custom forming dies to use other magnum cases are available at about $140.00 from RCBS. I probably won't buy this new thingy but I have sent an enquiry to the fellow asking if it would fix that problem. I'm as curious as the rest of you to know if it really does anything different or not. besto | |||
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one of us |
Don't know why a regular small base die wouldn't acomplish the same thing. Maybe there would be a little more effort, and case life would be shorter, but it should work. | |||
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| <Larry A. Willis> |
John, Take a look at my web site page called "Questions and Answers" and look at question #3. www.larrywillis.com Larry ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
Stocker, It is no great problem to reform and trim 7mm Rem Mag brass for your 7x61. This is what I would do. The only bulge above the belt that concerns me is best taken care of by excersise! Regards, Bill. | |||
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| one of us |
Bill Leeper: Yes , I know there are a number of workable options. My son bought these for me as a gift and put out a nice bit of coin for them. I hate to tell him they aren't usable. The gent who suggested turning my sizing die down a little further should know that any further will move the belt back. The fellow who makes the die assured me that his die is intended to do exactly what is required. Perhaps. besto | |||
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| One of Us |
Stocker, You may find that the edge of the belts are a few thou from the die and it might be worth grinding back a shellholder and see how it goes. Mike | |||
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| one of us |
Mike375: Been there , done that. That's why I know that the belt would be set back. The die will not size completely to the belt. There is just a tiny bit in front of the belt that is supported by the leading edge of the case web that doesn't size down. It's just enough to prevent bolt closure. | |||
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| one of us |
Stocker: Since I own one of these dies, why don't you send me a piece of brass to test it on. Kind of a 'try before you buy' offer. Michael | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
mbundy, that's certainly a kind, thoughtful offer!! | ||
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| one of us |
eldeguello: I thought so too and told the gent so in an e-mail. The product ( or any other coming out of the U.S.) will cost us about 170% compared to what a US resident pays when our dollar factor, shipping and brokerage is calculated. Moreover if I send him some cases then we will all know if the manufacturers concept is supported by the results. I've measured up a few more of the cases in question and find that the largest have expanded to .516. Also cross sectioned a couple lengthwise and see no sign of separation line starting. besto, all. | |||
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| One of Us |
Lets not fix the result lets fix the problem. In fact, you are work hardening the brass. It will soon fail any how.. I did not read all the posts about this bulging problem, due to being board of the question. So I am sure there were lots of posts stating the same thing I just said. Have the guy (Larry) make an insert to keep the chamber dimensions correct tolerances.. (somthing more for Larry to sell) The best way to fix the problem is to: Set back the barrel and get the thing chambered correctly..
Scout.. | |||
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| one of us |
quote: Totally agree!
Hey stocker, One other option is to make a "U" shaped 7/8-14 inside threaded cup to fit on the bottom of your Full Length Sizing Die. Have a square edged hole machined in the bottom of it just the size you need to squeeze down that last little bit. You would only need it to resize that Pressure Ring on any additional "Once Fired" cases you might buy for use in your tight chamber. Screw it on to do that initial Pressure Ring squeeze-down and then take it off and save it. If you have a buddy who is a machinist, he could do it for little of nothing. You could even get a "replacement" 7/8-14 Insert from RCBS, like is used in the Rock Chucker. and just attach a plate to it. Anyway, I hope his tool fixes your problem. Heck, work out a deal with mbundy to do all of them for $20. Then his tool is down to $80. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Hot Core (edited 05-11-2002).] | |||
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| <Larry A. Willis> |
Hotcore, I agree that mbundy's offer was very generous. I appreciate it and will also make the free offer to anyone. This could be an awesome number of packages, so it would be good to include return shipping. Trust me, the profit that I'm making on these dies is not that much. Yesterday I had to write a check for $10,000. for die parts. Think about it ... how many dies do I have to sell just to make one dollar? My resources are not quite like those of RCBS. However, I did take on this real problem that RCBS said would be too expensive to pursue. This collet die started out "exactly" like the die that you have discribed. It is a very logical and simple idea that already exists (known as a small base die). However, I found that with belted magnums, it couldn't reduce most cases enough, without shaving the brass. After making several VERY expensive prototypes, I settled on the design that I now use. Read the new "Questions and Answers" section on my website for more information on this subject. Larry ------------------ [This message has been edited by Larry A. Willis (edited 05-13-2002).] | ||
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| <bullpup> |
Hi, I would like to know if anyone has tried that collet die yet? | ||
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| one of us |
Does anyone have a silver bullet to fire into this thread and kill it once and for all? | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
I thought this old horse was dead!! Oh well, let's give him a few more kicks. Most of us have seen the ads (and explanations) for this (pretty expensive) gadget. Most of us who have been reloading belted cases for eons now have decided it's a scam, or to be more polite, a brilliant solution to a nonexistent problem!! Now, if you have a chamber that is a little on the sloppy side at the back end, this device would let you size down some of the "bumps" on cases fired in your sloppy chamber so they'd go into a correctly cut chamber on some other rifle, but other than that, I am convinced there's no real use for this thing!! I've been reloading belted cases (.264, 7 Rem. Mag, .308 Norma, .300 Wim., .338 Win., .375 H&H. .375 Wea., .378 Wea., and .458 Win., since 1960, and have never lost a belted case due to a "bump" in front of the belt!! The main thing that ruins belted cases is insipient head separation, which this thing does nothing to stop! The way you avoid head separations in belted cases is, after the first shot, you set your resizing die so that it doesn't set the shoulder back, and will headspace off the shoulder after the first shot!! [ 03-09-2003, 20:56: Message edited by: eldeguello ] | ||
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| one of us |
In fact all cases get a bulge near the head if the chamber allows it not just belted cases. This device may also work that sensitive area more and cause earlier failure! The concentration of this device on belted cases shows that this was dreamed up by someone who does not understand handloading and has limited experiance. | |||
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| one of us |
Stocker-You need too do 3 things in this process to make sure you don't waste money.You already measured ahead of belt,measure THE belt for expansion, compared to other brass you have that works.Measure pockets also.Or see how a new primer seats.IE if it goes in too easy.You sectioned a case you said, section one that worked and compare them.Measure the brass thickness just ahead of the belt.In developing my wildcat 458 HE I had soft brass and belts would expand once in a while with heavy loads, and I knew that if I made a swage to take it back that it would shorten life considerably.And in the wrong place, IE, the corners.You don't want to over work the corner So using case spinner I took off enough,about 3-4 thousands so they would work to get as much testing from brass as possible.I also took of same just ahead of belt.Now this isn't dangerous as the cases were 45 thousands thick there.How many reloads do you get on your brass that works.If you need more help email.Ed. | |||
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