well, you guys said i should get one, so i did. got it today. ran 50 shells through it and reprimed them. hopefully it'll tighten my groups even more! it should since the shells are still fireformed to my chamber. can't wait to test more loads out soon!

Make sure and try those cases out in your gun before you load the powder and bullets. I have one Lee Collet neck sizer that creates a crush fit.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp.../568101304#568101304

The main reason I use the Lee Collet die is because it makes the whole process a lot easier without all that lube in the neck and an expander button. Better concentricity.

Whether that transfers to accuracy depends on other variables as well. All you can do is try and see. IMO, it definitely will not decrease accuracy and I have seen a slight increase.

Let us know after you shoot.

Make sure you test, whether sized cases have enough neck tension to hold the bullets. Do so, before you prime! It is a LOT easier to try to fix the problem on an unprimed case!!

The Lee Collet Die is an amazing piece of equipment. It produces very straight ammo at very low cost, with a minimum of hassle. What it does not do very well, is control neck tension. Use it with newish brass, or anneal from time to time.

- mike

thanks guys..this is what i do so far...FL size brand new brass, then shoot it..then bring it back n clean, deprime/neck size, primer, load em up. how many times can i load them by neck sizing? i also crimp them. I'm not very familiar w/ neck tension...can you explain?

can yall kinda coach me some? i'm new to reloading and i'm 16. I've got a neighbor that i know real well and he helps me a lot and got me into it, and he tought me the safety stuff, but can yall help me with the real in-depth stuff? i'm not jumping into it yet. I don't have a case trimmer, which i'll get this summer when i start my job. and he tumbles the brass for me. i'm gonna get an RCBS powder thrower/scale combo this summer also.

Your'e already ahead of the curve. You have an idea of what is good. There is no answer to your question except when it statrts to go bad which you have already recognised. Your concern has already set you ahead of loaders your same age.

quote:

Originally posted by beretta9289:
how many times can i load them by neck sizing? i also crimp them. I'm not very familiar w/ neck tension...can you explain?

You can usually reload a case 2 to 4 times before you need to push the shoulder back with a FL die or a body die. The way to tell is to take the fired case (unprimed) and chamber it in your rifle. It will begin to have a crush fit, which means it become hard to chamber. The brass is becoming too big for your chamber and the case body needs to be sized and the shoulder needs to be pushed back a little.

How are you crimping them? With a FL die or a Lee Factory Crimp Die? It might be best not to crimp, especially with a FL die. Most of the time it is unnecessary unless you have a real hard kicker, an auto loader or a lever action. Neck tension is the amount of grip the neck has on the bullet. The Lee Collet will put enough grip on the bullet if used according to the directions with about 25 pounds weight on the ram lever. It is possible to pop the top cap on the Lee Collet Neck Sizer if you put all your weight on the lever, don't overdo it.

If you are crimping with the Lee Factory Crimp Die then it is a lot easier to get it right.

quote:

Originally posted by beretta9289:
I'm not very familiar w/ neck tension...can you explain?

My understanding on it is, with a normal neck sizing die or fls die, an expander button on the deprimer rod will pull back thru the neck and expand it a certain amount so that a bullet will be a firm fit without a crimp.

As i understand the Lee collett outfit it squeeses the neck down onto a pin and that's it.
The diameter of the pin sets the resultant neck tension on the bullet.
This may? vary with the case neck thickness (I've never used one). So more neck tension thinner rod, less needs a thicker one.

I don't know how much more accuracy these members get with these gadgets, but with a long throat in my chamber, normal neck or FLS or even factory loose fit ammo I can get 1/2" to 1" groups. For a field rifle that does me just fine.

woods, to answer your question: I crimp w/ the Lee factory crimp die. i don't put a very heavy crimp on them, just a light one, enough to make sure it stays. the last trip i took to the range, i put 4 shots in a one-hole type of thing. they where 4 vertical holes, but punched out all the paper b/w them. I need some heavier loads, cuz 54.5 gr. of H4831 and a 130gr. bullet isn't very heavy. So i need to find another sweet spot for that bullet w/ a heavier charge. man, reloading is fun and addicting! I love it already...

anyways...i get what yall are saying about the crush fit in the chamber. they were fine this time since they've only been fired once, i'll check them next time to see how they're doin. I have one question. how does brass become tighter and tighter in a chamber? what i mean is how does is become "bigger" than the chamber. I thought it gets totally fireformed the first time. I guess it's just because of all the pressure each firing. I think i get it. well thanks for all the help. Any more tips n tricks for me?

As long as we are talking about loading jacketed bullets, the neck tension is adequate and consistant with all of my Lee Collet Dies in six different chamberings. I think they were a divine inspiration and the best thing to happen to loading since the invention of the brass case. I have seen a noticable improvement in accuracy with all of them vs. FL sizing dies and a minor but still measurable improvement over conventional neck sizers. They take the guesswork out of long range shooting. As Woods says, you have to set the shoulders back every so often, how often depends upon if you shoot milder or hotter loads. While not always strictly necessary for every cartridge/action, the Factory Crimp Die makes a positive difference more often than not.

In my experience, it makes no difference as to the thickness of the neck, the collet squeezes the neck onto the mandrel, and it is the size of the mandrel that determines the interior diameter/neck tension. While we are not talking about benchrest shooting here, we are talking about going from "pie plate" to 3.5" groups at 300yds with my .308 bolt Rem788, enough to know I can hit a varmint at that range if I need to, and never worry about can I hit the deer offhand. (If I can't, it's not the rifle/load to blame.) With my .22-250, 400yd groups went from 8" down to 4". Both rifles use Sierra GameKing SBT's, 150 or 165gr for the .308, 55gr for the .22-250. And I'm talking about 10-shot groups.

The dies do need modifications for working with the larger necessary diameters of cast boolits, i.e. having a custom sized mandrel custom turned on a lathe, and they also occasionally need the collet honed slightly larger. For most however, this is not a consideration.

quote:

Originally posted by beretta9289:
woods, to answer your question: I crimp w/ the Lee factory crimp die. i don't put a very heavy crimp on them, just a light one, enough to make sure it stays. the last trip i took to the range, i put 4 shots in a one-hole type of thing. they where 4 vertical holes, but punched out all the paper b/w them. I need some heavier loads, cuz 54.5 gr. of H4831 and a 130gr. bullet isn't very heavy. So i need to find another sweet spot for that bullet w/ a heavier charge. man, reloading is fun and addicting! I love it already...

anyways...i get what yall are saying about the crush fit in the chamber. they were fine this time since they've only been fired once, i'll check them next time to see how they're doin. I have one question. how does brass become tighter and tighter in a chamber? what i mean is how does is become "bigger" than the chamber. I thought it gets totally fireformed the first time. I guess it's just because of all the pressure each firing. I think i get it. well thanks for all the help. Any more tips n tricks for me?

Sounds like you are doing everything just right! Soon we'll be asking you questions. Seems like you have the drive to find out all you can and that will push you to the front of the pack pretty soon.

My understanding about the case expansion is that it expands and contracts each firing and the contraction part gets less and less because of hardening of the brass. Less "springback". For each caliber I load for I have a die box with 4 dies in it. A Lee Collet Neck Sizer, a Redding Body Die, an RCBS Competition Bullet Seater and a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

I also use the Lee Zip Trim and case length gauges for trimming. Much easier.

Since you are starting out, I would be happy to send you a Lyman manual trimmer and a Frankfort Arsenal tumbler that I no longer use. PM me if interested.

quote:

Originally posted by Versifier:
I have seen a noticable improvement in accuracy with all of them vs. FL sizing dies and a minor but still measurable improvement over conventional neck sizers. [QUOTE]



G'day Versifier. With the above, were you PFLS'ing so that the case fit your chamber?
When NS'ing did you leave a bit unsized to centre the case.? Do you think any of this matters, re an improvement in accuracy?

I'm just hoping I don't have to buy a collet neck die.


[QUOTE]
They take the guesswork out of long range shooting.[QUOTE]


How so?



[QUOTE]
the Factory Crimp Die makes a positive difference more often than not.
.

I didn't find any difference at all, a total waste of my time, lucky the thing came free with the dies.

Hang in there.

My brand new cases get run through a FL sizer, then they are trimmed to a uniform length, chamferred and deburred. Each rifle has its own brass kept separate from others of the same caliber. I do not leave any "unsized bit", but I do rotate the case 1/4 turn and run it in a second time to help if there is an issue of concentricity. (Like cleaning primer pockets, this is something I place in the category of "doesn't hurt" but not sure it helps.) As I use boattail bullets for long range shooting, I could likely get away with partial sizing as you describe, but I have had great results with my current method and hesitate to try to "fix" something that works well already.

They take the guesswork out of long distance shooting by shrinking the group size enough to make sure and consistant hits on small targets. I can (on a good day) roll a soda can with successive shots with my .22-250 at 400yds, and hit golf balls with it at 200. With a FL sizer, it was soda cans at 200-250yds and golf balls at 100.

I have used simple RCBS and tried the more complicated bushing neck sizers, too, and while the interchangable bushings might make sense for a custom chambered/throated rifle using specially neck-turned/reamed brass, I cannot see the added expense when the collet system has worked so well for me.

Looking through my records, this will illustrate my findings when I was working with a bolt action Rem 700 in .223 about ten years ago. I was getting 200yd 10shot groups of 3-5" with a FL sizer, which shrank to 2-4" with an RCBS neck sizer, and shrank again to 1-1.5" with the collet sizer, using the same bullet, brass, primer, charge, and OAL. That was enough to convince me. Not all improvements have been quite as dramatic as this, but there has been a measurable improvement in every caliber I have tried with collet dies.

The loads then were worked up first, and the longest OAL determined with the bullet used that would function and feed from the magazine, so I feel the load is at optimum before making the switch of only the die to determine its effect. Now, I just work up the loads with the collet dies and skip the FL until I need to set the shoulders back a bit.

I have also become a believer in seating and crimping (when necessary) as separate operations. I am gradually buying Lee Factory Crimp Dies in every rifle caliber that I load. Obviously the Lee Dead Length Seater has no crimping shoulder, and when I began to examine the crimping process, I discovered that conventional crimpers can damage bullets and cause wrinkling and collapseing case shoulders (especially in .30-30) when there are small variations in case lengths. The problem is non existant with the Factory Crimp Die. The only rounds I still use roll crimps on are straight wall revolver cases. I also use taper crimps by different makers for the greater diameter cast boolits, but I do not as yet cast in anything smaller than 30cal.

Thanks, I'm looking to buy something, I was just hoping it would be something more interesting than a collet die. Might just give it a try even though I'm more than happy with my two "accuracy" rifles.

One .223 was designed for 900y range work, accuracy was sufficient, but a bit more for little trouble won't hurt.

Re, roll crimps, never had much trouble once set up. My "trick"? is never to just crunch'em but to "feel" them on the press handle. It's interesting how little crimp pressure is needed in a cannellure to hold. And it's quite a sudden and fine adjustment.

The Lee factory crimp is retired. That was supposed to improve accuracy too, so with that and the collet dies, they will have to almost go in the one hole.

Well, you know, any rifle can shoot a one hole group, the trick is gettig one that will do it with more than one shot fired....

Don't laugh. After a lot of load development I now do many one shot groups.

As long as you always hit just where you want to.

The Lee Collet Dies are simply amazing!!
I'm a believer for sure.

If I get one of these things and the accuracy doesn't improve markedly I'm going to let you characters know it.

A mate was getting about 3/8" with his FLS'ing
so I don't know what you lot are doing wrong.

And then I suppose you all will expect me to collet size OVER any FLS'ed cases I've had to do? Jeese I'm averaging about 3/4" now with a light field rifle, and I'll bet I'm the main problem there anyway.

JAL...my groups are plenty satisfactory, but i'm going everything possible to tighten them up more. don't see how buyin another die can hurt nething! oh yeah, no lube required

quote:

Originally posted by mho:
Make sure you test, whether sized cases have enough neck tension to hold the bullets. Do so, before you prime! It is a LOT easier to try to fix the problem on an unprimed case!!
- mike

Luckily I read this this morning, as my bullets would only just hold in the case, I took the mandrel out, gave it a quick polish and hey presto, nice snug fit now !