I've participated in a number of internet forums, and I've come away with the same impression in all cases - NOBODY'S OPINIONS, BELIEFS, ETC. SEEM TO CHANGE! Everyone holds fast to their original beliefs. Why do we do this? :-(

I am influenced greatly by facts and sound reasoning.

Some do, some don't. It depends on your point of view. There are a number of very experienced and knowledgable people on the net.

I've changed my opinions and preferances a number of times by listening to people on these, and other boards.

I`ve found I was wrong about things a few times and learned a few more but, change my opinion?? Never!!

I have learned a lot about reloading on this forum and benefited from some of the sane discussions without attacks and prejudices.

Those marathon discussions on sectional density haven't done me any good, though.

And I have learned that if you go hunting in Canada, best keep a wary eye out for psychotics (few in number I'm sure).

Why is it we don't change? Like playing for the home team, our opinions and beliefs are our own side and it is human nature to want to win. We're all scoring points.


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

Somebody once said, "try and learn something new every day". And that's something that I try to do. I've learned a lot from this forum and others. It's a mixture of the good, the bad, and the ugly. Just has to be sorted out.

It is always useful to hear differing ideas for any solution. You may ignore most of the comments, but some will get you to thinking of other possibilities. Emotional opinions don't have much effect, but soundly reasoned ones are worth considering. Even if you consider an opinion and then reject it, it has served a purpose. There is always someone sharing something that triggers a "why didn't I think of that!" event.

Someone once said, "You'd better learn from other's mistakes, because you won't live long enough to make them all yourself."


I approach most conversations this way: I want the person to whom I'm listening to argue persuasively. After all, if the person i'm talking to isn't interested in being persuasive, then are we not just being nice and patting each other on the back (this has its place, of course)?

And as I'm listening, I'm always thinking for myself (or trying to!). No, by no means do I consider myself an "expert" in anything more than one or two fields. But I'm no dolt either; I listen to what's said, and try to see if it makes sense.

And the only way one learns anything is if one does those two things: listening and thinking. Talking comes much further down the road after these two!

Interesting question you raise!

friar

I try to go thru life with the philosophy of keeping your eyes, your ears and your mind, open.

I have learned a lot and have had people compliment me that I helped them learn something. Helping fellow shooters, makes me feel like I have accomplished something. Knowledge means nothing unless you do something with it. Sharing it with others is doing something with it.

If someone has never taken the opportunity to meet a few of the people on this forum face to face, you really owe yourself the treat of doing so. I have met a few people on the forum when I went to Montana I looked them up and met them face to face. I have also met a few people who live locally thru the forum here. You guys have no idea what a treat that really is, until you have done it. I met Rogue 6 here on line, and now when I am in Medford, ( 25 miles away) I will stop by his office, ( he is an insurance agent) and he and I will sometime just sit and discuss shooting and hunting for a couple of hours.

That is the best part of this forum in my opinion.

I have also had a few people who have really locked horns with me also and the name calling flew. However, whether they thought I was a jerk on not, I learned things from them by keeping that open mind. One guy in here, that comes to mind was Jon A from up in Washington state. I still maintain, he may need some lessons on a little more mellow delivery in his communication skills. However, once I could get past that, that man is a wealth of knowledge and information.. He may be a young guy by my standards, as I am 52 and he is around 30 or less. But he is an engineer and a technical person. Tech guys are not always the best at communication skills, but it should not turn people off from the knowledge that they have to offer. I'd rate Jon A, experience way beyond his years.

I have been to the home several times of the now banned "Clark" ( courtesy of the political forum). I originally had an email from him about coming out and going ground squirrel shooting with him. Well I gave him and offer and one day he called me from the local McDonald's in town.
He spent the night at my house and the next day we went over to Klamath Falls and went out and shot sage rats.

DUK,. from Germany, locked horns with me on the political forum also. But then he tried some of my blue dot loads, and had great success with them. We exchanged emails and he even sent me pictures of his hunting trip to Finland. Did I love that. I have a friend I have never even met face to face, courtesy of this forum.

From my Blue Dot loads and requests for them, I have emails from all over the USA and in Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. I have been able to share info with those guys and I have had them share info with me.

Yes this forum has effected my views, opinions on issues both related to shooting, handloading, hunting and politically. Differences or not, I have met some great people on here. IN a way, we are all our own little 'band of brothers' on here.

Thanks to Saeed for making this site possible.

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

Good on you Seafire. As much as we all enjoy coming to this forum, it sure can be pretty cut-throat at times. In fact, the only guy who does not get targeted seems to be Saeed. One can only assume that courtesy in the face of our host has something to do with this? Although at times, one wonders whether the word courtesy and AR should go into the same sentence?. Yet, we actually all enjoy the same things and share a lot of values. It is great when we make (mail or personal) contact with some of our fellow posters - it has been a privilege I have been fortunate enough to enjoy, and I have benefitted from the experience.

As a forum, I sure learn a lot from what is written on AR - both technically and culturally. One of the things I personally enjoy, is that there is such a mix of people and cultures represented. Good opportunity to keep us all open minded and ready to learn something new.
- mike

.

Where you fall on the learning curve is also reflected on how you react to posts on this forum. For those searching out the "facts", there is a lot of information and experience provided here and in general technical questions receive sufficient replies to allow us to learn from the experience of others. when you no longer have any burning technical questions, the addiction of participating in the "debates" can be entertaining and sometimes enlightening. The really opinionated dive headfirst into these discussions more out of passion than for scientific discovery and hunting is primarily a passion.

I strongly suspect that the majority of people who change ther veiws/opinions as a result of the forums are in fact the lurkers and those who post only a few times.

Being Australian, the biggest effect the forums have had on me is I rarely buy American gun magazines anymore as most of the stuff is posted up 3 months before we see the magazines.

Also, meeting Americans that I communicate offline with has been both good and informative.

In other areas the forums have tended to strengthen my existing views or convictions.

Mike

There are a few memebers here that I have personally delt with and I respect their opinion very much. Enough to change the way I look at some subjects.
When I read a post from someone that I do not know I tend to follow "believe half of what you see and NOTHING that you hear"

What OEH said.

Affect my opinion on 'issues'...???

Define issues. On politics, basically never. On reloading/gunsmithing/hunting and associated 'issues', I learn a lot and occasionally 'adjust' my views. I'm an engineer, so I have to be able to look at things rationally and impartially...so a rational, well thought out position gets my full attention (if I care about it in the first place). It helps to have the attitude that lead to my choosing the following signature line (cause there's A LOT of total BS floating around, even here):

quote:

Originally posted by Old Elk Hunter:
... There is always someone sharing something that triggers a "why didn't I think of that!" event.

Completely agree!

An example would be the guy that mentioned placing a "Spent Case" inside the chamber of a Pump or Semi-Auto rifle when cleaning it from the muzzle so the vast majority of the brush residue is thrown inside the case when the brush reaches the chamber. Yes indeed, "Why didn't I think of that!?!?!" back when I had one. But it still helps other folks today.

Seafire's Blue Dot loads have been wonderful to follow. He puts a lot of effort into them and even tosses in a good story from time to time like the one about the two ladies(?) in the camper...

Always nice to see folks post where they have just excellent luck with new cartridges, bullets and powders. I've yet to see a bad post about a NorthFork or a Barnes TSX. I would not know that without the Boards.

Deke and his efforts with the 30-30AI and the 30Gibs is a good example of a guy working his way around some Wildcats. Bob338 and all the Wildcats he messes with.

And nice to verify that your own original thoughts were correct, like:

A non-calibrated HSGS = Reloader's Pyrite(aka Fool's Gold)
---

Perhaps the very best service provided by this particular Forum is it allows you to point out a fool when you see his foolish and dangerous posts. A classic would be the "World's Most Ignorant Reloading Suggestion" where one fool suggested that using a sharp pointed tool to hammer a live Seated Primer out of a case was the way to do it.

Some Boards would not have allowed the "correction thread" and there would have been some unknowing Beginners duped into trying such a totally ignorant concept.
---

So, yes I do think you can learn from these Boards as well as have the opportunity to correct concepts that have the potential to hurt folks. Then it is up to the reader about who to believe.

I have a feeling alot of peoples opinion change but they won't admit it. A whole lot of pride going on. I know my opinions have been changed dramtically. I love sharing ideas and all.

Some you have to admit, never ask a question and just bark out thier ideas only and attack anyone different. I was like that a few years ago, and finally said to myself, why do I need this validation. I am very secure with myself, and it sure doesn't put food in my stomach or money in my pocket to prove something to a computer screen.

quote:

Originally posted by dla:
I am influenced greatly by facts and sound reasoning.

Me too, particularly on subjects about which I know little or nothing! I consider it a bad day when I fail to learn something new on this forum!

Other than the great debate of using Sierra HPBT bullets for hunting (and it has been on EVERY forum in the world, several times over) I have seen nothing that offers a difference of opinion.

Is H-110 better than W-296? Is Winchester brass better than Remington? Is Savage better than Ruger? these are all topics open to discussion, however each person will defend what they purchased because they spent their hard-earned for it, and don't want anyone to tell then they goofed!

Oh...I forgot, "Is RCBS better the Lee?"

I have learned so much on this site and forum it isn't even funny.

Where else can you get tips from acknowledged masters of every form of firearm building, owning/collecting, restoration and yes, reloading/ballistics. Published people post here, it is prudent to think on what they post.

This doesn't mean you take for gospel everything you read, but you should think about everything you read. Follow up on something you think is valid. If you are polite, and are not a bother, you can ask anyone a question or ask for clarification. I know this from experience.

It would be foolish indeed to blow off as nonsense the fruit born of your questions. And inconsiderate.

quote:

Oh...I forgot, "Is RCBS better the Lee?"

Sometimes but not often.

While I think it's pretty common to see the long-time users hash and re-hash the same issues without resolution (and usually with some name-calling and hurt feelings) I would suspect most of them retain their original views. For many of us who are relatively new to reloading and/or firearms, these forums can be a source of a great deal of information and insight. Even then, I think that changing opinions is a difficult prospect.

For instance, the person who has never picked up a firearm in their life will not likely have a strong opinion on whether Remington is better than Savage. And of course, as several other people wrote, posting on or even reviewing these forums requires the ability to filter a lot of B.S. out. Most every person who contributes to one of these discussions does so to persuade others that his/her position is correct. Inherently, there's a strong possibility of bias which may, even unintentinally, skew what that person is trying to say.

So, to answer the original question, I would say that I am more likely to review this forum as a means to formulate an initial opinion on something than to actually change my own because of what's written here. However, once I've formed an opinion based on personal experience or unbiased research (if there is such a thing) it requires a significant amount of factual information countering that view to persuade me otherwise...

I do not think it has really changed my opinion on many issues, but I certainly enjoy the exchange of information and ideas.

Heck I just learned a new technique for keeping the gunk out of Dad's old Rem pump when I scrub the bore.

Thanks Hot Core.

I hope that I may have been of some assistance to one less experienced than I at some time in the past.

I know this forum has helped me spend a lot of money !!

The great value of the Forum is sharing. Not just weather reports, but sharing experiences and knowledge. The internet has given me, us, the arena to actually interact with others on subjects of interest that would not be available without the educated "electrons".. Learning, for me, is vital. I find all kinds of answers and insights on the Forum that I'd never in a million years find otherwise. The knowledge and experineces, and willingness to share, of Forum members is what makes this place come alive. I can get answers on lubricants, thread sizes, what powders to use, in a matter of minutes or hours that would take me much research to answer myself.
And, there is a bonding of men here that, without the Internet, would never happen. I've met good, honest, responsibe people here from nearly every part of the world that I'd never be able to interact with if it weren't for the Forum. So, where I have something to contribute, I do so. Where I can learn, I do so.
I also pick up trends in our shooting that I'd never get otherwise too; like what rifles/scopes/loading equipment, along with new thechniques, are in vogue today. I'm here to learn and contribute.
Don

Once you separate the beliefs from the facts it becomes clear. If you define beliefs as facts that are not proven in that persons mind then reason has not worked.

I see facts repeated here that members have offered and accepted as correct. Still all may not agree but when the majority does such new information becomes mainstream.

There still may be a flat earth society so one must dismiss some as vandals and fanatics or perhaps you did not make your point clear.

In some cases it does. I'm always interested in new loading techniques, some new gadget, etc., and I'm always interested in the results that guys are getting with their rifles, both at the range and on hunts.

Generally, though, I'm stuck in my ways as far as rifles, cartridges, and bullets are concerned. I'm into familarity and sameness. I don't get anything out of experimenting any more. I just want to go hunting with the rifles I currently own and trust. I am open to trying new hunting bullets and handloads, but only for the rifles I currently have.

AD

This website has been invaluable to me. When I started to think of Africa, the discussions about all aspects of hunting there were a godsend to this North American hunter, whose dream came true because of the experience freely shared here. I have learned many things from those many knowledgeable reloaders here that I would have been much longer figuring out, if ever. As I grew as a shooter and reloader and hopefully continue to grow I cannot go through a day without consulting you "reloading idiots". Sure there are those who think they know it all, and actually some who do, nearly. It doesn't take long for those whose knowledge is shallow to reveal themselves, or those who have a lot to offer come to the front. To answer the question I have gained much from these forums, some opinions changeing others not, bottom line we sort through the good, bad and ugly on a daily basis, and in the end wind up with a wealth of knowledge offered no where else. Good shooting.

I am mostly a lurker, but the knowledge on this board is absolutely incredible in its depth and bredth. As stated earlier, where else can you find the actual masters, the best of the best, of their trade giving out free knowledge and advise and help.

As far as the flaming, well I like my coffee with a little chicory in it and have never found a man worth a damn unless he had a little in him. The polite word in social circles was to call someone a bore, now we call them trolls and it doesn't take long for either one to announce himself. I hate it when I see someone decent get caught up in a flame war, but Saeed does a great job of letting the board self correct. Trolls are usually subdued by common opinion and a good dose of deserved harrassment and humiliation

Has this board changed my opinions, in a word, Hell yes. I don't see how anyone could not be changed by the knowledge ,ideas, and opinions on this board.

I will probably never go to Africa, Australia, or South America to hunt, but the stories and pictures on this board have allowed me to live vicariously through others who actually have accomplished these adventures.

The thing I appreciate the most about this board is the quality of character of most of the participants. Liars, thieves, frauds and others of there ilk are usually exposed immediately. Common sense almost always prevails here at AR.

Oh yes, Saeed thanks for a first class hunting shooting forum. I enjoy and apreciate it very much, very much indeed.

As far as changing my opinions..of course this forum has.
I've found that some posters truely (sp) hate the USA and they aren't shy to say so. I can't fathom why,but to each their own. Jealousy maybe?
I've made alot of friends here.Even the ones that have absurd thoughts.

It is hard to believe that participating on this forum hasn't changed the OPINIONS in part at least of All who have participated. I am stuborn and bull headed but I got to admitt that my OPINIONS are modified or even reversed the more I learn from the posters on this forum. roger

In some things, my opinions have been swayed, and I like to hope that I may have helped others make up their minds as well on topics or discussions where folks were seeking advice or just to bat around an idea.

There's nothing wrong with being stubborn, so long as you can also listen to reason and sound logic (and provide the same), in an honest and friendly spirit of camaraderie.

I'm just glad to be able to express my opinions and lead all of you miscreants into the bright light of truth...

My opinions don't change, because they are based on my experiences. I still won't use SMK for hunting, dont' care for the .270, won't hunt deer w/ a .22 centerfire, etc. I do however learn something new now & then, & that's the benefit to me of the various forums.

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
I know this forum has helped me spend a lot of money !!

I agree.I thought reloading meant saving money .Changing my opinions I think so;getting "accurate answers " from reiable,experienced members,I cannot think how one cannot " modify "his opinions.AR forums are the best,the best guys are here.Saeed is really a fine gentleman,thank Saeed for giving us access to the forum

One must diferentiate between changing beliefs and exchanging ideas and information. A belief system is or can be very basic. I don't think that anything I read here will change my basic belief system. Might I come away with an increased appreciation for Mauser 98s or Remington 700s? Mausers, yes; Remingtons, no.

On the other hand, I cannot start to mention the amount of good information that I have been exposed to on this forum. It is worth saying, that life is too short to do all one's own testing; therefore, take advantage of the other guy's successes and failures.

This group is head and shoulders above all the rest in the experience of African hunting, gunsmithings and reloading. I have some experience in all of these, but still learn here. Kudude

I have lurked here for almost a year before signing up. It has taken that long before I found a subject that I needed to post/inquire about that I could not find by searching past posts. That should give show the wide array of knowledge available here.

Fred,

I know this is a little off-topic and you've probably said so before, but why don'tcha like the .270?

Pm me if you like--not trying to pick a fight here, just wondering about your rationale

friar

I've learned a lot on this forum....and I hope some have learned from me.....but I disagree that these forums are worthless.....often just a small change can pay big paybacks. Weve had marvelous discussions about pressure and bullets and all kinds of things....There may be a few that don't believe what they read when it's contrary to their thinking but there's little doubt that the discussions are good and certainly I've learned a few noteworthy things.