When I reload my 7x57 and my 6.5-06 I run into a problem. When I check the brass on both of these cals., after being shot I have no run out (about 1/1000). After neck sizing or F.L. sizing I have 5/1000 run out. I'm using Reddings standard dies with a carbide sizer. I also lube the inside of the necks before resizing. I don't have this problem with my other calibers. I use the same dies and he same carbide sizer button. The brass travels smoothly into and out of the dies. My press is new and it to is a Redding.I must be doing something wrong.
If anyone has any suggestion I'm all ears.
I should of NEVER purchased the "Concentricity Gauge"
Howard

quote:

Originally posted by hglass:
When I check the brass on both of these cals., after being shot I have no run out (about 1/1000). After neck sizing or F.L. sizing I have 5/1000 run out. I'm using Reddings standard dies with a carbide sizer.

I should of NEVER purchased the "Concentricity Gauge"
Howard

After firing, no case should be off unless the chamber was cut wrong. The neck and case expands to fill the chamber and they are almost always near perfect.

With a full length die I get the best concentricity by sizing, then checking on the concentricity gauge. Then note where the needle shows the largest or smallest measurement, either mark it or keep your finger on it. Reset in the shell holder with that is a certain place and resize. There will be a "sweet spot" where you can get the best concentricity. Once you find the spot you can resize using that same method and "sweet spot" on all your cases and you can cut the .005 down to .002 or less.

I was going to try to neck size so I sent off for a Redding S Neck Sizing die and a bushing of .329 for my 30-06. All the cases came out at about .007 no matter what I did. Went back to FL die and rotate-resize methad.

I think if I try neck sizing again I will use the FL die and neck size down to the point just before the die starts to resize the case body. That will leave a portion of the neck that is fire formed to fit the chamber neck and maybe that will center the rest. Next project.

My $.02 worth---ALL dies with expander balls need tuning. Think about it...a piece of typing paper is .003" thick--what are the odds that the expander is not PERFECTLY centered in a die??? Pretty good I'd say. Pull the expander stem out of the die (and now is a good time to clean the inside of the die). Run about 5 brass into the die and see if they come out concentric. If they do (and usually they will) you now have to try and get that stem centered on re-assembly. A great way that helps is to put a piece of very concentric brass up into the die to hold the stem in place as you tighten it down. Sometimes this takes 2 people unless you have 3 or 4 hands. AFter reassembly try sizing some brass and check runnout. If not good then do very small turns of the expander stem--probably 1/32 of a turn at a time. Resize some brass and repeat the small turns. At some point I can almost guarantee that you will get GREAT RUNNOUT CONSISTANTLY. (Somehow, someway the expander spindle will hit almost perfect centering in the die body) I have many dies that consistantly make less than .002" runnout after sizing with most of the brass at .001" and less. I own, hornady, redding, forester, rcbs, and lee dies. ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN TUNED and most make fantastic ammo and all make good ammo!! I have never ever got a set of dies from any factory that made as good of ammo as those that I have done this simple work with.

Kraky

Exactly how do you do this? If you put a concentric case in the die and start scrwing in the expander/decapping stem, the expander ball will push through the neck and then be free to become off center again when it reaches the cavity of the case. I suppose you could use a universal decapping die first, but don't you still need the expander ball to pass the full length of the neck?

Explan please

I am also having problems with my Redding "S" FL die. I get between .005" and .007" runout. I get .001" from my RCBS FL die (unbelievable) from which I have removed the decapping rod. I expand the necks seperately and still have .001" or less runout. My regular Redding FL die has .002" runout.

I think that Redding may be having QC issues right now.

quote:

Originally posted by Ralph Hyrlik:
I expand the necks seperately and still have .001" or less runout. My regular Redding FL die has .002" runout.

I think that Redding may be having QC issues right now.

How do you expand the necks separately without running them through a die with an expander ball?

I use a Sinclair expander die and a .001" undersize (.223") mandrel.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=RECPNT&item=NT-EXP&type=store

WOODS-- Different dies have different ways of locking the expander stem. I try to put it in place with the decapping pin showing outside the die body and snug it a little but not all the way. Then I put a piece of concentric brass in the shellholder and raise the ram so the case mouth centers it (Yes this has to be a resized piece of brass not something that was fired and taken out of a gun) This is where it gets tough to do it yourself....on my hornady dies I kind of brace the handle with my knee while holding the top of the die with a wrench in one hand while tightening the spindle with a deep socket in the other. The idea is get the expander a little snug but then make the final tightening while holding it centered with a piece of concentric brass. I may lose creditability with some people but I love hornady dies. I may have to do this procedure a few times but when I'm done I can turn out .001" runnout brass over and over again with a hornady sizer. I credit hornadies eliptical expander as being the best in the business. They go through the case neck like butter.
It's really pretty simple--if you take the expander out of a die and size some brass and they come out without runnout you know your die body is perfect. Now it's a matter of getting the expander stem as perfectly in the middle of the die as possible so it doesn't pull the case off center when pulling the brass over the expander ball. It might take an hour of tuning with many brands of dies but sooner or later you will get it in the middle and YOU WILL MAKE REALLY REALLY GOOD BRASS. Now we have to argue that it really makes a difference or not. I used to think it was really important---I'm not sure any factory hunting rifle can tell the difference between .001" and say .004" runnout. BUT, I do enjoy getting things as good as possible and once my die is set.....it's set for a long long time.
I've read posts by people that say just take out the expander but using the bullet as an expander during seating doesn't seem right to me. I simply can't believe alot of neck tension and perhaps inconsistant tension is good at all. There are other people out there that deprime with a universal die, size without an expander, and then use something like a lyman M-die to open the case mouth back to dimension. I belive that system will work well but once again.....a properly tuned die will do it all one NORMAL operation.

if you call redding and talk to one of there techs he will tell you they only gurantee their dies to .003" neck run out!
I decided awhile back to use lee collet dies where i could. no problems with run out.
I have had no problems with my rcbs dies. either fl or neck die are always inside .002" run out.
i sent a $80 redding die, along with 5 fired cases, i got the die back. they had replaced the die body.
Run out .003" with the new die. the old one was .005" to .007"
Dave

what kranky said.
on all my dies i toggle the press over against the shell holder on a loose die with a trued piece of brass just for setup . then tighten the die. most of the time thats all that required. on one set of lyman dies i have to play with stem to get it centered.
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
Then I put a piece of concentric brass in the shellholder and raise the ram so the case mouth centers it (Yes this has to be a resized piece of brass not something that was fired and taken out of a gun) This is where it gets tough to do it yourself....on my hornady dies I kind of brace the handle with my knee while holding the top of the die with a wrench in one hand while tightening the spindle with a deep socket in the other. The idea is get the expander a little snug but then make the final tightening while holding it centered with a piece of concentric brass.

I see. You don't raise the ram all the way up so the expander is still in the neck of the good case.

Question - if you are holding the case in this position, the case is not touching the sides of the die anywhere so the expander ball is the only thing contacting the case. What keeps the expander/decapping rod straight down in the middle since the case can move from side to side?

How about Lee Collet Dies and Redding Body Dies. Anybody do this in combination. The Lee collet Die sizes the neck and the Body Die sizes the case.

Woods--I think the point here is that when you tighten the expander down you are kind of holding it on both ends by having a piece of brass contact the expander ball. Otherwise you are simply cranking on a nut that is maybe 1-2" away from the expander ball. The more you can hold it in line the better or the darn thing is gonna "wonder" during tightening. I'm not sure you'll ever hit the EXACT MIDDLE of the die when you tighten the expander--the object is to get it really close......close enough that it doesn't pull the center of the case mouth. My system works for me. It works really really well.
RE the lee collet die. I have several sets. Most work really good but on some of them I get tension on the bolt when closing it on collet sized brass. Even after one firing. I'm not sure why this is but speculate that the lee collet die can move a little brass down towards the shoulder depending on how the chamber of the gun might have fireformed the brass. On the guns where the collet die works it is a wonderful mating of light neck tension and perfect concentricity. AND gott love not having to lube the brass and then clean the lube after sizing.

For what it's worth I started cutting over to Wilson neck sizing bushing dies, and runout is not much of a problem with them. It gets the expander ball problem out of your life. If I want to full length size I use a Redding body die, then the Wilson NS die. Either way you avoid the expander ball and get more concentric reloads. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

I like to use a full length sizer die, without expander ball, and adjust until the shoulder is touched, but not moved back. I do not set the adjustment ring on the outside of the die. I adjust each session I use the die.

I have never had to expand a rifle neck to get Copper bullet started.

I measure the concentricity with the shoulder and rear of the case being the bearing surface and the ogive of the bullet is the test surface.

With that test:
75 cents/shot Federal Gold Match is .004"
8 cents/shot AK47 ammo is .012"
my $5/shot handloads .001" to .004".
15 cent/shot Greek 303 Brit ammo is .000"

According to the NRA and the government, the typical bullet to throat fit in a 30cal, .004" ammo will give and extra 2" to group size at 100 yards, but any worse excentricity does not matter, as the throat will bend the ammo straight.

The out of control varible is the rifle. If one dials the barrel in the lathe with a tapered bore rod, and them measures the excentricity of the chamber, one may find an error. If ammo with a matching excentricity could be oriented in the chamber, better accuracy could be achieved. This is easier with falling block than with a bolt gun.

I hate to laugh at the NRA--I've seen that quote before. It is downright crazy. Almost all your factory ammo will have .004" runnout yet people claim day in and day out that they find factory ammo that will shoot under an inch.
One of my best groups was shot with ammo that had .007" runnout. (It was before I got the darn rcbs casemaster and started chasing runnout like a wildman). I will pretty much guarantee I could load up that same ammo recipe with .007" runnout again and shoot .5 moa.

One .5" group neither proves nor disproves the ammo. You have to fire many rounds and many groups for a valid statistical measurement.

You might read the report on the tests for runout that were reported in the Handloading book produced by the NRA. It appears on p87 in the 1991 edition. It reports on the tests conducted at the Frankford Arsenal, not tests done by the NRA. Clark is exactly correct. The tests clearly show exactly what he stated. Incidentally, there is also a good story in the same book regarding gauging a rifle's accuracy and the number of rounds required to do so. The average shooter will shoot one sub-MOA group and call his rifle a sub-MOA rifle. One, or even just a few sub-MOA groups, doesn't make IT so yet many shooters claim that, no more so than firing ONE small group with very eccentric ammo.

I'm not sure where to find that info but I simply can't buy into it. I've seen too many reports on good guns shooting consistantly under 1" with factory ammo. You can count on factory ammo being anywhere between .001 and .005". Even the blackhills match ammo that Clark talks about in his post was .004". If I'm interpretting what you guys are saying via the NRA test people would be shooting no better than 2" groups with pretty much any factory ammo???? Based on that no one would even consider buying factory ammo--all us reloaders would be reloading for the rest of the shooting world!! Furthermore there sure wouldn't be any 1", 1.5" factory guarantees by riflemakers. And we sure wouldn't be sending any guns back to manufacturers cause they weren't accurate--it would all be blamed on the ammo.

Read aabout the tests. It's NOT the "NRA test people", it's the Frankford Arsenal which conducted the tests, and it was thousands of rounds, not one or two groups. It doesn't matter that you don't buy into it. Believe what you want and delude yourself. Their tests indicate that .001" runout translates to ¼" group spread up to .004". After that further runout doesn't matter, no effect. Read the damned thing don't just expound on emotions, or conduct your own valid tests with enough samples to validate them.

OK Bob--cool down a minute. In Clarks first post he said ".004" ammo will give an extra 2" to group size". I came back and said I didn't believe it. You came on line and said he was exactly correct. I came back and said I don't believe it again. Now you come back and say that .001" runnout translates to 1/4" group spread up to .004". So who's talking about what here?? Clark says 2", I think you are saying 1". I'm not sure I'd even buy the 1" idea. I would like to read it. Anyone know if this article can be accessed via internet??

OK Kraky, you're right, and I apologize. I just hate skepticism by folks who haven't even read about something, particularly extensive tests, and still don't find it valid, then ridicule them with little to back it up.

I didn't nit pick Clark's post but I didn't appreciate seeing the NRA ridiculed either, particularly when the only thing they had to do with it was to publish the results. I don't know where Clark got his information and I'll leave that to him to clarify. I can only pass on the article and tests in the NRA publication referred to.

When the math shows a .001" runout will cause a 1/4" error at the target, I assumed that if the next round's excentricity is pointed the other way, there will be a + and a - 1/4" error at the target to make a 1/2" group due to run out.
If the effect continues to .004", there would then be a maximum of 2" added to the group at 100 yarsd due to runout.

So if you marked your cartridges when the concentricity gauge showed it's largest (or smallest) reading and inserted them in the chamber with the marks in the same spot, you could cut your groups in half? Or would they shoot in the same hole?

There are people who "index"their runnout. I even did it back when I shot more than I do now. Didn't make a difference in my guns. I'd sure like to see some test info on all this. I do believe that long match grade bullets might be more affected by runnout than shorter stubbier bullets. It seems to me a long bullet might be more easily distorted. I'd really like to see some info done with a hunting rifle from a machine rest--take the "people" out of the equation. I'd like to see the test done with a load that is known to shoot very accurate and consistant with that particular barrel. I'd also like to see if the bullets continue to go off line beyond 100 yds or if they stabilize at long distances like I see so many benchresters talk about. It might also be very interesting to have all the bullets run through a "Juehnke" machine before the test. (Think I have it spelled right) Well, I sure didn't mean to get the water boiling here. I apoligize to anyone I might have offended with my views. Time to sign off on this one--thanks guys--if we didn't have some different points of view there would be nothing new to learn.

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
Well, I sure didn't mean to get the water boiling here. I apoligize to anyone I might have offended with my views. Time to sign off on this one--thanks guys--if we didn't have some different points of view there would be nothing new to learn.

Hey, wait a minute!!

I enjoyed your posts and they gave me some ideas. That's what we're doing here.

Some people have hot buttons, seems like Bob338's might be the NRA, Just Some Guy's is Ruger (from other post "What is it with Ruger"). I won't tell you mine.

You have a lot to offer, keep pitchin' in. Bob338 has helped me on other posts.

I played around with fired brass today with my Redding dies and found the following:

Fired case measures .0005" runout.

Fired case neck-sized in a Redding Competition die measures .0005" to .001" runout.

Fired case FL sized in a Redding "S" die with a bushing installed measures .001" to .007" (very inconsistent).

Now, here is where it gets weird:

Fired case FL sized in the "S" die without a bushing measures .001" every time.

Neck-sized case with .001" runout FL sized in a Redding "S" die without a bushing does not change the runout.

Body-sized case with .001" runout neck-sized in a Redding Competition die will come out with .001" to .004" runout.

Sooo... it appears that it is best to neck-size first in the Competition die, and then bump the shoulder back with the "S" or a body die. This way, .0005" to .001" runout is always maintained.

But why does swithing the steps induce runout?

quote:

Originally posted by Ralph Hyrlik:

Fired case FL sized in the "S" die without a bushing measures .001" every time.

Neck-sized case with .001" runout FL sized in a Redding "S" die without a bushing does not change the runout.

What was the outside diameter without the bushing? Will the neck have enough tension to hold the bullet? On my 30-06 I have a .329 bushing because the outside diamter of a loaded neck is .331

I don't have an unsized case or I would take the bushing out and try it myself, but looking down inside the die, the bushing looks smaller so without it the neck might not be sized enough to hold the bullet firmly.

I guess that you converted you Redding S Bushing Die into a Body Die. If that is a fact, then I might have a use for it after all.

Was going to use it for a casting plug!!

The S die without a bushing does not size the neck at all, and the neck consequently does not hold the bullet.

It looks like either the bushings or the mechanism of the die causes the runout. The S die makes a great body die otherwise.