All this about down loading the big bore rifles is new to me and iam learning a thing or two.Will a jacketed bullet get stuck in the bore if the velocity is to low?What would be a example?I would try to stay within safe speeds for sure.Also is it ok to pull factory bullets and just use a differant powder charge because there would be no way of knowing what kind was factory loaded or just take out 10 percent? of factory charge,would the neck/bullet mouth need resized to except the bullet back?Would the primer need to be changed also?Anyone ever done anything like that?Would that be a no-no?I usually just shoot factory ammo but would really like to experiment with reduced loads for plinking and lower recoil.I know it makes a differance sometimes and the hottest load is not always the most accurate or fun to shoot alot of times in a row.........

The powder that Saeed is referring to is IMR SR 4759.

I have used it with good results. The most consistent powder that I have used though is Blue Dot.

Unfortunately I have also had to test and develope my own loads by working up. I have not used it in the 375 H & H or the 458 Win Mag tho, as I do not own either one of these calibers. If I had them available I would have worked up loads for them.

I like reduced loads in a lot of scenarios when one does not need a 500 yd load to shoot game at 50 to 150 yds. Secondly, the reduced recoil allows for better shot placement for less experienced shooters.

Thirdly with the right bullets, and both were mentioned the reduced velocity allows those bullets to work within their design parameters, which in that big of a bore, are quite effective.

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

I started out wanting a 450 marlin and decided I could load a 458 up or down but couldnt load a 450 up as high as a 458.I can have the best of all cartridges with the 458.Someone said that a big gun can be loaded to a little gun,but a little gun is always a little gun,I like that.I guess a 458lott would be even better.Plus I prefer bolt actions and the 450 marlin is mainly lever.I read somewhere that 45-70 power size loads were doable in the 458 but havent ran acrsss them yet,was wondering if 300gr.bullets from various manufactures would be ok to substitue for the same powder charge as the other?Like powder charge for hornady brand be ok with sierrra or speer with same weight of bullet or do I have to buy all those differant manual books?Also will the 458x2 american round fire safely in a 458winmag?Sorta like the 458wm fires in the lott?Just never heard one way or the other.Also Will hangfires blow a gun up if the charge is to low & is tissue paper always a good filler just to be on the safe side?Whats muzzle flash and is it harmful?
Also can the 404&416 magnums be loaded down to where the recoil is the same as a 375H&H magnum or less?If it can it would seem that the 416s/404 would be the choice over a 375H&H because one could load up & down to suit the Game/target......Kinda like two rifles for the price of one...I know the 458 comes in 350grain,400grain&500grain from the factory loaded rounds......Pretty Neat!
Is this kinda/sorta right?
1-458-350gr.-375H&H class load/Maxium45-70 loads
2-458-400gr.-404/416rigby or 416 remington class load
3-458-500gr.-Duplicates british big bore nitro express rounds with shorter action size & Modern/cheaper cartridge/rifles to take largest game including Elephant...
That makes the 458wm a working mans big bore that can be afforded by everyone and not in custom rifles only and cheap ammo to boot. IMO Very Very Great classic Cartridge! What else can compare for Dangerous Game that will stomp,gore,claw,bite& Eat you if you are not carrying ENOUGH GUN....

IMR4895 in a 45/70 with heavy bullets is very adaptable over a wide range of loads.

With 405 gr. cast:
30 gr 10kpsi 1250 fps 57% case full
48 gr 28kpsi 1725 fps 91% case full
55 gr 40kpsi 1980 fps 104% case full

I have been shooting the 30 gr load, and although the trajectory is like a rainbow, accuracy is very good.

Look into Accurate ARms xmp-5744 powder. Accurate make a give-away booklet I've found at gun stores, and they also list some loads on their web site (do a google on accurate arms). 5744 is designed to work in large capacity cases for reduced loads and is not position sensitive. I've loaded several very accurate reduced loads in my 375 H&H. My notes show a starting charge of 40 grains of 5744 with 220 to 225 grain bullets, listed in the Hornady manual. Bob

Lyman's 48 and Hodgdon's 2004 offer pressure tested starting loads down near 2100 fps for the 300 gn bullets. That's still hotter than the factory .45-70. I'd have to guess, but I think 4759 would work for the factory level.

I've no idea what to use for the .375. The 235 gn loads all seem to be for fps far higher than the .375 Win range, and that might be too much for that bullet.

I think that was my quote, and you are correct about the 458 Lott, which is why I built a second one as I missed the first one I sold. I load it to 458 win mag levels with 350 gr bullets, 2400-2500 fps is plenty for NA game, and recoil is on par with a 375 H&H. I did pick up a 500 gr bullet mold, but haven't had a chance to work up any loads for it. I also have a 280 gr 45 pistol mold that will paper patch up to a find plinker bullet.

I think straightwall cases are a bit more tollerant of being downloaded, so long as appropriate powders are used. I find Unique is outstanding with cast bullets. I've loaded 30 grs of it under a 470 gr cast bullet in my 500 Jeffrey, and it clocks around 1100 fps. I wouldn't call it recoil-less, but it is a far cry from full patch loads Also very accurate, at 25 yds all shots go into one very big hole

I would go to cast bullets if you are after very reduced loads, ie pistol level velocities of 800-1200 fps. At 1500 fps or more, you shouldn't have to worry about sticking a jacketed bullet. The Lyman cast bullet manual is a good source of reduced loads. I also have some older issues of Handloader that have some milder 458 win mag loads.

For best accuracy with reduced loads, either have a full case of a slower powder, or a partially filled case with a faster powder.

Can I reload 300grain sierra bullets in the 458winchester & will any hot 45-70 load shoot in a 458?what low power load will cause a hangfire?Can I load 200gr.375winchester bullets in the 375H&H magnum?Were do I get this powder load information?These seem like they would be great for reduced load plinking and whitetails?

I wouldn't pull a factory load and reduce the powder charge. Not knowing what powder was used, you don't know if the powder will ignite well when reduced. Some powders don't ignite well when the charges are reduced. You will need to run the case through a sizer after pulling the bullet. 458 win mag ammo is expensive, you're better off working up some handloads.

I don't know what the pressure or velocity cut off limit is for jacketed bullets to stick in a barrel. Staying at 45-70 level velocities should be safe. Also the lighter thinner jakceted bullets will take less force to get them through the barrel. Yes, a jacketed bullet will get stuck in the bore if a too mild load is used, and they are a PITA to remove.

I've driven soft cast bullets to levels so low they don't exit the bore, but they are easily removed. Using fast burning powders, and soft cast bullets, you can get down to levels that sound like a cap gun. I never chronoed those loads, but they'd still make it most of the way through a phone book.

Those guys are shooting a slightly heavier load of 186 grains of VVN 150.

Only yesterday we had two visitors - one claimed to be an ex-SAS man, and as soon as he got hold of a rifle I could see he wasn't.

Perfect candidate for the 577 T.Rex.

I have two loads ready, so got my 14 year old cousin to shoot a reduced load, and then gave the one who claimed to be from the SAS a real one.

You should have seen screaminh his head off, and holding his shoulders!

I told him he needs to practice to be able to shoot that rifle like the young kid

That's a hoot!!!

I did the same to a friend with the 338wm. However, I shot the reduced load, he shot the IMR4350 max one.

He's on to me now, an looked at the cartridges on the Lott and said no thanks. We fish alot more now.

Some data on my 458 win mag reduced loads:
IMR 4198 37.2 gr/CCI 250 primer/350gr oregon trail flat nose/458 Lott Ruger No.1 24 inch barrel

Shot| Velocity | Avg Dev
1 | 1494 (H)| 81.3
2 | 1450 | 37.3
3 | 1346 | 66.7
4 | 1423 | 10.3
5 | 1382 | 30.7
6 | 1336 (L)| 76.7
7 | 1455 | 42.3
8 | 1391 | 21.7
9 | 1464 | 51.3
10 | 1386 | 26.7

Avg velocity - 1412.7 FPS
Avg. Deviation 44.5 FPS
Std. deviation 52.6 FPS
Extreme spread = 155 FPS

Do handloads typically vary this much?

The powder only filled about 1/2 the 458 WM case. Should I use a filler of some sort to keep the powder up against the primer?

The load was accurate, but produced more black soot than other loads I have made. Could this signal incomplete combustion?
-Al

There is indication that reduced loads can be dangerous. I have not seen specific confirmed literature. Most of the info seems to indicate that the danger occurs when a light charge of slow powder is used. If you use faster powders and be reasonable you can get good results and be safe. 26 gr of 4227 and a 110 gr bullet works well in my 30-06. There are two specific powders for reduced loads and they are both mentioned in earlier posts: 5744 and 4759.

My favorite rifle at the moment is a 338 WM I have used to kill so far quite a lot of roe deer, wild pigs, fox, badger and one big, fat crat. I use Blue Dot (Thanks again, John!) and 200 grain Ballistic Tips. The load does not kick and is very precise. The big, slow bullet does not spoil meat but kills with authority. Biggest game was a pig with gutted 69 kgs. perfect penetration. What more can I ask for?

By the way, Sierra 200 grains and Vihta N110 fly well as well and, in fact, even a little faster. However, no experience on game so far.

DuK;

I have a couple of pounds of H 110, that I have picked up.. I don't know if it is the same as N 110, but I am going to play with it and see what I can get out of it...

If you have any of your data on the 338 Mag with N 110 and care to share it, I would deeply appreciate it!

Viele Danke!

seafire

Seafire,

I am currently on the road but will post the data once I am back home. I tried N110 with both Nosler BT in 180 and both BT and Sierra's SP in 200 grain if I remember well.

When, according to QL loaded to the same pressure, N110 gave somewhat higher velocities than Blue Dot.

H110 and N110 are recommended for similar purposes but do look completely different, though, the latter is an extruded powder so you might want to be careful when using similar amounts of both.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Those guys are shooting a slightly heavier load <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> of 186 grains of VVN 150.<br /><br />Only yesterday we had two visitors - one claimed to be an ex-SAS man, and as soon as he got hold of a rifle I could see he wasn't.<br /><br />Perfect candidate for the 577 T.Rex.<br /><br />I have two loads ready, so got my 14 year old cousin to shoot a reduced load, and then gave the one who claimed to be from the SAS a real one.<br /><br />You should have seen screaminh his head off, and holding his shoulders!<br /><br />I told him he needs to practice to be able to shoot that rifle like the young kid <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Saeed,

'That is funny...

A room mate of mine in college ( we lived off campus) had a 357 Magnum.....

He use to take people out shooting with it at times... Especially the macho big mouth types... He use to put in 5 38 shells and the last one they would shoot they were shooting a full power 357 mag load....

These clowns would shoot off the first 5 loads and then the last one would bring the recoil up to where half the time they hit themselves in the head and cut foreheads were frequent.....

Jeff would just look at them and take the pistol from them and asked "what happened? YOU were doing fine up until that last one..."

I never saw anyone who had a clue.....

It was always entertaining!

cheers
seafire

I have a 450 Marlin bolt-action and I make some nice soft-shooting loads using UNIQUE powder and cast bullets ... get the kind already lubed to prevent leading.

I mostly use 300gr and 350 gr cast bullets and start at 8 gr of UNIQUE with the WLR primer. This gives me about 800-850 fps and is very soft shooting. Individual rifles will vary and I suggest you go up in 1 gr increments until you find the "sweet" spot for accuracy. No more than 12 gr which should give you about 1150-1200 fps which is still very soft shooting.

As an example of bullet getting stuck in the bore of a rifle: I was attemting to develop a subsonic load for a 223rem in a bolt action rifle using a 70gr jacketed bullet and IMR-700x got down to a 5gr charge @ 1260fps before getting a bullet stuck, made it approx 20" down 26" berrel just pushed it out with a cleaning rod no damage to anything.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
DuK;

I have a couple of pounds of H 110, that I have picked up.. I don't know if it is the same as N 110,
seafire

I have those two powders, and although the loads and names may be similar, the look, smell, and price are very different.

H110 is ball powder and N110 is stick.
H110 smell reminds me of shooting 44 mag, and so has a very positive association