Okay so I went out and shot my first handloaded cartridges. I had acceptable accuracy 1.5" at 100 yds, with only a few flyers. (total of 30 rounds fired). After each shot I inspected all of my cases for over pressure conditions. None found

My load was was 10% below Max. stated in my loading manuals. So this brings me to my next question is how do you increase your charge levels? Do increase a couple grains? A couple of percentage points? How do you determine where to stop?

thanks,
difranco

It depends on a lot of things. A good loading manual is your best guide to reading pressure and increasing powder charges.

I generally increase powder charges about 2%, usually 1 grain at a time in hunting rifles, until approaching maximum, where I cut that in half.

In a modern bolt action rifle using a high intensity cartridge, resistance to bolt lift is usually the first indication that you have exceeded the pressure limit. It is often accompanied by shiny marks on the case head indicating brass flow into the ejector hole. This is too much pressure, and the load should be reduced at least 5% from that point.

Learning to read primers is tricky, but excessively flattened primers or cratered primers may be an indication of too much pressure. You have to know your rifle and your primers to make a valid comparison.

The fact that you ask this question suggests that you have not studied a good loading manual enough to be reloading. The manual will usually keep you out of trouble if you read and heed it.

[ 09-21-2002, 16:50: Message edited by: KLN ]

All of my manuals say "start 10% below maximum and work up slowly" , really didnt expand beyond that, except on what what to look for in over pressure situations. I really paid attention to everything my rifle did while testing my rounds. I made a check list on 3x5 cards to review while I was out on the range. Things like listening to the report, how well the case extracted, ease of opening the bolt, gas leakage, loose primers, cratering of primer, primer flattening, puncturing of primer, etc.

I even fired a few factory rounds just for comparison, and the only difference was the factory rounds had a bit stronger recoil.

Difranco

Difranco -

If you have access to a chronograph, that will be your best friend in determining how far to go.
As has been beaten to death in this and other forums lately, "traditional" pressure signs (sticky bolt lift, primer appearances, case expansion) may, or MAY NOT be true indicators of pressure. If you have a chance, there's a good article by Barsness in the latest Handloader on this subject. He pressure tested some loads he'd been using, developed using traditional methods, and got a few shocks.

The only reliable way, IMO, to know what to do when working up loads, is consult reliable manuals (note the plural), to get an idea of what velocity you should expect from a given combo, and, since velocity/pressure is directly related (not meant to start a firefight - that is a VERY general statement), either:
1. Use a chronograph to tell you when you're approaching maximum expected velocity, hence max pressure.
or
2. Stumble about in the dark. Not meant as a slam, but, unless you have a definitive measuring stick (chrono), how can you tell where you are?

The 'start 10% low' practice is a good one, but, what do you do NEXT without a chrono?
Example - I have two different 308's, both Rem 700's, with 22" barrels. A mild starting load, say 44 I4064 and 150 Speer spitzer will, and has, when fired on the same day, shown a variation of over 100 FPS average velocity between them, so, the faster one may have a "fast" barrel, or, more likely, it has a tighter chamber and/or barrel. If I started 10% low and went up a grain at a time till I got to what the book calls max, I could easily be OVER max in that rifle, and not know it, especially if the 'traditional' signs didn't show up. That particular 308 always requires at least one to two grains less powder, depending on the powder used, to get the same velocities as the other one. The second one follows the manuals pretty closely. Without a chrono, I would never have known.

Shooting Chrony sells used ones for +/- $50.00, and new ones for under $100.00. If you're anything other than a casual loader, they're just about mandatory. You can also use them to aggravate friends/relatives. My brother in law has a 7RMag that, he was convinced, zipped 150's out at 3,200 FPS. When the Chrony popped up "2990" after his first shot, the look on his face was like that commercial - just PRICELESS , especially when I said "hey Fred, nice 280 you've got there". Hehehehe.

R-WEST

I work up 1/2 (0.5) grain at a time, load five rounds at each weight level, and stop going up when I get to what I consider an acceptable size group. Then I load up 10 more of those, and verify the grouping ability of that load. In a big game rifle, a 1.5" group is not bad, but I'd work up to perhaps 2 gtains more, and see if group size changes any. If it gets smaller as you go up, fine. If it gets larger, you might get better accuracy by going DOWN a little from your present load to see if groups shrink!! Accuracy is more important than velocity, since you are near a max load anyway. In any case, stop increasing the powder charge AT THE FIRST SIGN of excessive pressures, such as ejector marks on the case head, difficult bolt lift, or primers that appear much more flattened than they were at lower charge levels. If any of these signs show up, DROP BACK DOWN at least two grains, or perhaps more (this depends on what size of cartridge you are using).

I purposefully left out caliber / cartridge because I wanted more general information rather than specific to the cartridge.

So I ordered up a Chrony today from Sinclair International while I was picking up a few other goodys for the loading bench.

As far as 3 ring binder, I have made an Access Database for keeping my info including pictures of targets. Which cross references lot numbers, prices etc. Not much information in it as of yet but it will get there over time. Nice thing here is that I can export queries into excel spreadsheets and create graphs comparing differing features of loads. (i.e. average group size of x brand of primer including all calibers loaded. compared to w, y and z primers)

Difranco

Difranco . One thing I am glad to see is that you are planning to keep good records , just one thing you might want to add to that list , as soon as you find a loading that works , keep a copy with your bank manager . As for reading pressure signs , I use all the ways that you described plus one that I find quite consistent . It involves taking a factory fired cartridge , and taking measurements of the case head expansion just ahead of the web area , this is a good indication of what is going on at the time of the pressure peak in your specific rifle . You then simply compare your handloads with the factory fired cartridges , using all the signs described by yourself ,and other reloaders . I've been using a Chrony Beta model for the past 3 years now , and this is realy the only way to know how YOUR rifle is taking to a specific loading . Good luck , and good shooting , and never try to squeeze every last bit out of your gun , if you want faster buy bigger

Rudie

For loading big game ammunition there's probably not a lot of need to work up in less than 1 grain increments, nor to fire extended groups with each increment. Especially so if you have a long drive to the range or if it takes a while for your barrel to cool, as it does here in Virginia most of the year.

I'm going to the range today to try a new (for me) way of doing it. I'm taking 50 sized, trimmed cases, primers and priming tool, a couple powders, powder measure & scale, a box of bullets, and a Lee O-frame press (with dies) bolted to a 2x6.

I'm going to clamp the press to a table, put in a seating die, load one round, shoot it over the chrono and repeat, adjusting the powder charge until I reach the velocity I'm looking for. Then I'll load several more to double-check for consistent velocity and accuracy.

With a little luck I may have a load worked out in one afternoon -- by the methods I used to use I would have to take at least 3 trips to the range (45 min. each way). And I'll have the flexibility to experiment with seating depth, crimp, etc., on the spot.

Of course the chronograph is absolutely necessary for this to work.

I start with the lowest charge listed in the manuel and run the first round through my speed trap. If it about right, I proceed in half grain increments until I hit max, at which time I run three shots over my Chrony to see if it's still in tune with the manuel. I shoot at the same target and mark each three shot group as to the load. The marked target will tell the story of the most accurate load, if the powder and bullet combination will work at all. I've tried powder that gave my 4" groups and used the leftover to fertilize my lawn. Once I have a powder bullet combination that groups well, I adjust up or down in 1/10 grain increments to fine tune the load, if it will fine tune. I find that my most accurate loads come in at 1.5 to 2 grains below the listed max in the manuel in question.

Howdy,

DiFranco, my experience has been to use a 2 grain step with magnum size cases, 1 grain step with 30-06 SIZE cases, and 0.5 grain step wtih smaller cases. THEN, when I find acceptable accuracy, I divide the step by 5 and experiment on either side of the acceptable load. For example, I loaded 55 gr., 56 gr., and 57 gr., in a .280. 56 looked good, so my next loads were 55.6, 55.8, 56.2, 56.4, 56.6. I found a sweet spot between 55.8 and 56.6 so I chose the middle. That will help deal with over or undersized cases, bullet weight variations (yes it does happen), and other variables. Hope this helps!!! I'm very encouraged by your attitude! Keep good records, and EXPERIMENT!
Good shooting.
Coach

It's to the point now where I think more about reloading than I do money, computers, sex or shooting. I've truely gone mad. Lately, I've been shooting so I can reload.

Difranco

quote:

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I've truely gone mad

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Welcome to the club.

Hey Hot Core - BET says your pressure measuring methods are out to lunch.

R-WEST

Hot Core - I was referring to your old friend, Mr. Tibbe. You guys certainly provided a lot of interesting reading in the past. Wonder where he is, haven't seen him around anywhere lately.

You know, I thought my post made sense, in that a chrono would give a guy at least an idea where he was with his loads, maybe I'm wrong (a guy over at HuntChat called it 'incredibly stupid'). If I had feelings, they'd be hurt

This is not meant to offend you, but, for the beginning loader, it would seem easier to me for him to read a chrono than to do the precise measurements your system requires.

R-WEST

Okay I feel like I just ran into the woods without looking back and wandered off the trail.

PRE & CHE ?

Difranco

Difranco,
If you are reloading to get better accuracy from your rifle you might want to look into the Modified Audette method of working up a load. Check out my string on "Velocity vs Group size," on this forum. It might be of interest to you.
Gene

Okay, Hot Core, looks like we're on the same page. I was worried you might have taken my post opposite of the way it was intended.

Difranco has certainly chosen the proper forum to expand his knowledge.

R-WEST