http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas...yncharset=ISO-8859-1

OK, so the URL is huge. And I hope I'm not beating the dead horse, BUT Hornady released their line of "Flex-tip" bullets. from .308 to .458. All good stuff.

(can you imagine Buff with the 325 gn. bullet in a 45-70)

They look sexy but if you really compare the bc to conventional bullets you'll find that you gain almost nothing in flatness out to 250 yds.
One of my friends quit using them in his 30-30 because they didn't penetrate anything like normal rem factory bullets.

a thread to look at over at compfire.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...3/page/1#Post2719783

I just saw that tonight when I was perusing the catalog.

I think they are made for lower velocity carts like the 30-30 45-70 etc, arent they?

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
They look sexy but if you really compare the bc to conventional bullets you'll find that you gain almost nothing in flatness out to 250 yds.
One of my friends quit using them in his 30-30 because they didn't penetrate anything like normal rem factory bullets.

a thread to look at over at compfire.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...3/page/1#Post2719783

Did you read the post? Do you know why these bullets exist? If so this is pretty good news! If not, there's room over in the political forums for ya

They exist because hornady wanted to give sex appeal to pumpkin lobbers. Hornady's promise of big velocity in factory loaded ammo was a bust...they were slightly faster but nothing like advertised. AND they were barely flatter shooting than say a speer flat nose.
In fairness to hornady they are priced pretty competitive with normal cup and core so if you like em they are a decent value.

You'll find all of the FTX bullets except the 225gr .430" at Midsouth with better prices after they get them instock from Hornady.


http://www.downrange.tv/artman...h/industry/374.shtml

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=789

http://www.midsouthshooterssup...m.asp?sku=0000330395

http://www.midsouthshooterssup...m.asp?sku=0000335105

http://www.midsouthshooterssup...em.asp?sku=000034305

http://www.midsouthshooterssup...m.asp?sku=0000345201

http://www.midsouthshooterssup...m.asp?sku=0000345215

http://www.midsouthshooterssup...m.asp?sku=0000345015

http://www.midsouthshooterssup...m.asp?sku=0000350102

Saw them in the last Natchez flier too.
-----

Hey Kraky, Do you have any additional details about the on-game performance? Like where the Point-of-Impact was, Depth-of-Penetration, Expansion or lack there of?

I believe that is the first negative post I've seen about them. I can also see where there could need to be some "Fine Tuning" on them by Hornady, just as Nosler did many times on their Ballistic Tips.

Plus, Win, Rem, Fed, all the others, and Hornady as well have been making excellent performance 30-30 cartridges for a very long time. It would be difficult to surpass their performance with a "new" Bullet from the introduction.

Ouch 50 cents a pop for the 45-70 bullets? Remington JHP is much cheaper!

From published ballistic data, the 325gn Hornady ammo has 30% more energy than the Factory Remington 300gn RN from the muzzle to 300 yards. not an insignificant amount. For reloading uses The BC of the LR bullet is going to be a better tool to reach out with.

quote:

Originally posted by Collins:
From published ballistic data, the 325gn Hornady ammo has 30% more energy than the Factory Remington 300gn RN from the muzzle to 300 yards. not an insignificant amount. For reloading uses The BC of the LR bullet is going to be a better tool to reach out with.

Are you for real? If you think gaining 30 to 50 feet of effective range is a big deal then by all means get these gummy tipped bullets. Me, I'll stick with bullets that offer better terminal performance without the marketing hype. I'll likely be able to shoot game out to the same range regardless.

The 325 gr .458 looks like a nice bullet for the 458 SOCOM. Mine beats up the HP on the 300 gr Remington if I don't pull the trigger and the 350 gr Hornady RN is just too much like a round ball for me.

30%... not 30 feet. At 300 Yards that's 1000Ft/lbs, vs. 700Ft/lbs you do know that 30 feet is 10 yards? and that 30% of 300 yards means 270 feet? Where'd you come up with 30-50 feet?

I shot the gummy's this year on whitetail out of a 308me. I am concered about how well the hold together. I would suggest 'holding off' on anything bigger than deer until they get a track record. I had one come apart on a whtetail shot walking toward me (frontal chest shot) at 15 yards.

FWIW--- From hornady's site:

45-70 with 325 rubber nose bullet...I could not find a bc, only a flight path and velocity bleed down chart.

Muzzle with 1.7" scope: 2050fps
100 yds +3" 1729fps
200 yds -4.1 1450 fps
300 yds -27.8 1225 fps

from quickload....300 grain speer flat nose.
Muzzle with 1.5" scope 2050 fps
100 yds +3" 1695fps
200 yds -4.2" 1392fps
300 yrs -29.7 1164fps

Facts as I see them....hornady cheats a tad by using a 1.7" scope height..this usually results in slightly flatter trajectory. The hornady bullet is 25 grains heavier and should have slightly better bc and maintain it's flight pattern better but barely does.
From my experience the bullet that will actually shoot flatter in this scenerio is the one that is the most accurate. A bullet that is not accurate in a gun loses bc really quick. It may be the hornady...it may be the speer.....only your gun knows.
RE performance of that bullet in 357 mag I've played with them (Factory loaded) in my 357 contender. There is absolutely no gain in speed over other 140 grain (factory loaded) bullets.
RE 30-30 performance...over at "real guns" website he did an extensive evaluation of the 30-30 factory loading. He found it was faster than any 170 grain loading...it should be..it's a 160 grainer. It was slower than a 150 grain factory loading. Actual chrono speed was in the 2200's.
Re my friends performance of the 30-30 bullet on deer. He is very experienced. Tried them when they first came out. Said he hit a whitetail at 100 yds 3 times before it went down. When he skinned it the first two had failed to penetrate to the vitals...the 3 barely did. Absolutely no damage to the off side rib cage. I asked if the bullets could have hit grass or possible twigs on the way to the deer and he said it's possible but he's shot tons of deer with rem bullets over the years in like conditions and they've always exited.
I do like Hornady products in general.....alot. But this bullet reminds me of the sst rifle bullet which I have no use for in almost any rifle which generates more than 30-30 speed.

The 325gr FTX has a BC of .23, it's listed on the link I posted earlier. For comparison, the Barnes 300gr TSX-FB has a .234 BC.

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=789

http://www.barnesbullets.com/p...ts/rifle/tsx-bullet/

Thanks Kraky. Nice first-hand report.

300 grain Remington JHP vs 325 grain LE vs 300 grain Barnes TSX-FB vs 400 grain Barnes orignal

all @ 2300 fps, except 400 grain at 2000 fps, all doable from a Guide Gun.



300 grain Remington JHP
100 yards-0" 1917 ft lbs
200 yards-8.08" 1661 ft lbs
300 yards-30.3" 1125 ft lbs
400 yards-73.2" 809 ft lbs
500 yards-144." 644 ft lbs

325 grain Hornady LE
100 yards-0" 2715 ft lbs
200 yards-7.69" 1924 ft lbs
300 yards-28.4" 1353 ft lbs
400 yards-67.4" 978 ft lbs
500 yards-131." 766 ft lbs

300 grain Barnes TSX-FB
100 yards-0" 2560 ft lbs
200 yards-7.65" 1825 ft lbs
300 yards-28.1" 1291 ft lbs
400 yards-66.6" 936 ft lbs
500 yards-129." 731 ft lbs

400 grain Barnes Semi-Spitzer Original (only put one in the mag!)
100 yards-0" 2907 ft lbs
200 yards-9.17" 2367 ft lbs
300 yards-31.4" 1922 ft lbs
400 yards-69.8" 1565 ft lbs
500 yards-127." 1292 ft lbs


If I'm gonna shell out more money than the Remington JHP I'm going with those 400 grain Originals!

Kraky posts;

"RE 30-30 performance...over at "real guns" website he did an extensive evaluation of the 30-30 factory loading. He found it was faster than any 170 grain loading...it should be..it's a 160 grainer. It was slower than a 150 grain factory loading. Actual chrono speed was in the 2200's.
Re my friends performance of the 30-30 bullet on deer. He is very experienced. Tried them when they first came out. Said he hit a whitetail at 100 yds 3 times before it went down. When he skinned it the first two had failed to penetrate to the vitals...the 3 barely did. Absolutely no damage to the off side rib cage. I asked if the bullets could have hit grass or possible twigs on the way to the deer and he said it's possible but he's shot tons of deer with rem bullets over the years in like conditions and they've always exited.
I do like Hornady products in general.....alot. But this bullet reminds me of the sst rifle bullet which I have no use for in almost any rifle which generates more than 30-30 speed."

That is not what I found at all. I tested the 30-30 LeveRevelution out of 2 M94s. One is a 20" barreled carbine I got new on my 14th BD in '64. The second is a Black Shadow M94 AE with 24" barrel.

I shot for group at 100 yards while testing for velocity and pressure in the M94AE using an Oehler M43 PBL. Muzzle velocity was 2452 fps (thats higher than advertised and the 2400 fps listed on the box). The average peak pressure was 37,800 psi(M43). Accuracy was 1.7" for the 10 shots tested. The BC (measured by the 2 sets of screens; 15' and at 100 yards) was .304. I then chronographed the same ammo from the same box out of the M94 carbine. The velocity was 2317 fps average muzzle velocity for 5 shots.

Winchester 150 gr PP and Federal 150 gr PowerShok were tested the same time out of the M94 AE. Velocity for the Winchester was 2300 fps even at 36,900 psi(M43)and the Federal was 2301 fps at 38,100 psi(M43). That is a 150 fps advantage to the LeveRevolution with the heavier 160 gr bullet.

The M94 AE has a 4X K4 scope on it so zeroed at 200 yards the poi at 100 yards is 1.9", at 150 it is 2.5", at 250 it is -4.7" and at 300 yards it is -12.3". Retained velocity at 300 yards is 1714 fps with 1043 ft lbs of energy; certainly enough for deer.

Now considering the LeveRevolution ammuntion is designed for the longer barreled (24") Marlin XTRs the use of the 24" barreled M94AE is in line with advertised performance.

A friend of mine with a 24" barreled M94 Legacy used the 30-30 LeveRevolution ammuntion to kill a nice 3 point (that would be an 8 point to easterners as we only count one side and do not count the brow tines) blacktail deer down in the Cascade Mountains in Oregon. He lasered it across the clearcut at 146 yards. The buck was quartering away so the bullet entered just behind the near leg, took out the top of the heart and exited out the brisket. He said the bullet wound channel was as good as anything he's ever used in a 30-30. The deer took one leap forward and skidded to a stop on its nose quite dead.

I am going to get some of these LeveRevolution bullets to load myself. If I can't match the velocity of the factory ammo (a possibility) then I won't balk at buying a box or 2 of LeveRevolution ammo every year to hunt with. My reloads (mostly cast bullets in the 30-30 anyway) will suffice for practice. The 30-30 LeveRevolution ammuntion definately is a much better performing load for the 30-30 than anythin previously offered, just as advertised.

Larry Gibson

Here's what I read at real guns.....

I found myself with lots of questions, no obvious answers, so I packed up the gear and headed for the range to clock some of the ammo myself. The test rifle was a standard 20" barrel Winchester Model 94 of recent manufacture. The Chronographs were a Shooting Chrony and an Oehler Model 43 for verification. Range temperature was 61°F with 38% relative humidity.


Ammo Bullet Weight
Grains Actual MV
FPS Advertised
MV - FPS MV Variance
Actual to
advertised MV Variance
to Hornady
Lever Evolution
Remington
Express 170 2012 2200 -88 -275
Hornady
Lever Evolution 160 2287 2400 -113 na
Federal
Fusion 150 2313 2390 -77 +26
PMC
Bronze 150 2211 2300 -89 -76
Winchester
Power Point 150 2234 2390 -156 -53

Maybe there are some different lots of ammo out there that are performing well....and maybe there are some lots that aren't?? OR, maybe some dates of manufacture of the ammo have been "delawyerized"???

kraky

I wasn't posting what I read at "real guns" or anywhere else. I posted what I the ballistics I actually measured and the report back from my friend who actually killed a deer with the 30-30 LeveRevolution.

However, lets say that the results of the "real guns" test are close to accurate. I doubt there is any different "lawyerized" LeveRevolution ammo out there. What I do see most often is a difference in velocities because the conditions (including the rifles) are different during the tests. Also many velocities posted are not corrected to the muzzle (mine were). Thus there are always going to be some differences.

We might also want to remember that the LeveRevolution ammo was made for the 24" barreled Marlins not the 20" barreled carbines. That is what the ammo is advertised for. That it doesn't perform in a 20" barrel as advertised means only one thing. The testor is using the wrong rifle. We should fault the tester not the ammo.

None the less, in the 20" barrels the 160 gr LeveRevolution may start off at the same relative velocity as the other 150 gr factory loads but it is the heavier bullet and has a much higher BC than the typical 150 FP 30-30 bullet. That means that down range it will still shoot flatter and retain energy better. That may not be important to you but it is to many. If not then why the 165 in the '06 or .308W instead of the 150? Small differences like that do matter to many hunters and shooters.

I'm not telling you or anyone to go out and buy 30-30 LeveRevoltion ammo. I just reported my experience with it as others have. You are free to use it or not, it's your choice.

Me? I'm going to use the 30-30 LeveRevolution ammo in my 24" barreled M94AE. I think it is a definate leap forward for the 30-30 using the Leverevolution ammo. In the M94 AE it indeed gives that rifle a 300 yard potential range on deer. I'll probably continue to use a soft cast 311041HP in the M94 carbine at 2100 fps as I don't hallucinate it to be more than a 200 yard deer rifle with the aperture sights on it.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
They exist because hornady wanted to give sex appeal to pumpkin lobbers.

He said pumpkin lobbers