I am wondering how many of you use one?? I have not used one yet so I am wondering if you have found them to shrink your groups.
I heard that Redding's Competition Seating Die aligns bullets so precise that they pretty much eliminate run-out.
Any thoughts on this?

I have checked runout and on hunting weight rifles, you are wasting valuable time. Maybe on a Bench gun, but those guys use hand dies which minimize runout. Yes, theoretically the Redding dies minimize runout; I use one for my .308 match rifle.

The lee collet dies work real well, There will be run out on most brass necks due the flow. mine are thicker on one side.
You can turn the necks to true up the outer diameter. or ream to true the inner.
Like most, its a waste if your just loading hunting rounds. But if you looking for the best hand load you can produce, that's another subject.
Dave

I broke down and bought one. It told me my ammo was straight. I knew that already since my ammo went into little groups. It gathers dust on my shelf along with other thingies that I've mistakenly bought over the years.
My point is the thingie tells you if your ammo is crooked. It doesn't fix it, nor does it tell you what step of your reloading technique is at fault. It merely puts $100 into someone else's pocket. And the question begs to be asked, if your ammo is crooked, do you break it down and start over? Or do you shoot it? And then determine if, WITHIN THE REALM OF YOUR NEEDS, the ammo groups in an acceptable manner?
A session of "fire culling" will give you the same or better answers and you're gaining trigger time and valuable bench technique time.

I respectfully disagree. I load for several friends, and usually don't have the benefit of Redding Competition dies, which are very good. It is my experience that when runout reaches .005-,006", accuracy will suffer in a hunting rifle. I can see the difference in a couple of my most accurate hunting rifles at .004". More important, it signals a problem somewhere. No, the gauge doesn't tell me where, but finding the answer usually isn't that difficult. I use a RCBS gauge. It isn't the best on the market, but serves adequately.

I use one and have found a big difference in strait ammo and ammo with high run out

I get a kick out of the guys that say their ammo is strait but dont measure it

If you want to build the best ammo possible then checking it is not a waist of time

I dont handload to save time

I am thinking along the same lines as you Ted...checking run-out certainly can't hurt and the gauge from Hornady even has the machinery to eliminate it.
Do you turn your case necks and neck-size with a bushing die??

I've never found a use for a runout gauge....just rolling the ammo on a flat surface will quickly tell you if there's a problem

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I've never found a use for a runout gauge....just rolling the ammo on a flat surface will quickly tell you if there's a problem

Ive been a machinist/toolmaker for going on 30 years.....you got bettet eyes than me if you can see .005 TIR on a table

Ted
You should be able to see a spitzer wobble down to about .003 TIR. That is only .0015 off axis at the tip. Take some and measure them. See what you can see.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I've never found a use for a runout gauge....just rolling the ammo on a flat surface will quickly tell you if there's a problem

Ive been a machinist/toolmaker for going on 30 years.....you got bettet eyes than me if you can see .005 TIR on a table

What is limited is the eye’s resolution: how close two objects can become before they blur into one. At absolute best, humans can resolve two lines about 0.01 degrees apart: a 0.026mm gap, 15cm from your face. In practice, objects 0.04mm wide (the width of a fine human hair) are just distinguishable by good eyes, objects 0.02mm wide are not.

I've never used a set of Redding dies. And without the supposed advantage of a runout thingie, I loaded ammo that was good enough to win back to back WV state championships.
I might want to add that I was using a Forster set of dies and a LEE press. You folks that think you can buy your way into the winner's circle, make me smile.
If you want to check run-out, weigh cases, weigh bullets, uniform flash holes, bevel the inside of the flash hole, neck turn, cut little logs of 4350 in half to get a precise load, and do any and all sorts of busy work, go for it. If it makes you happy, never let it be said that I interfered with your joy. But if you're loading for a hunting rifle, your time would be better spent practicing dry firing using bench techniques AND field position shooting . And when you're accually live firing, be sure and practice your field position shooting.

Dont break it

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I've never used a set of Redding dies. And without the supposed advantage of a runout thingie, I loaded ammo that was good enough to win back to back WV state championships.
I might want to add that I was using a Forster set of dies and a LEE press. You folks that think you can buy your way into the winner's circle, make me smile.
If you want to check run-out, weigh cases, weigh bullets, uniform flash holes, bevel the inside of the flash hole, neck turn, cut little logs of 4350 in half to get a precise load, and do any and all sorts of busy work, go for it. If it makes you happy, never let it be said that I interfered with your joy. But if you're loading for a hunting rifle, your time would be better spent practicing dry firing using bench techniques AND field position shooting . And when you're accually live firing, be sure and practice your field position shooting.

Some of the truest words I have ever read on the internet.

With my .223 I found that excessive run-out is not necessarily due to dies or technique. After much fussing and head scratching I found that my 1 fired mill surp. brass had necks that would vary several thousandths in thickness. Once I neck turned the cases the measured run-out dropped down to .001 or so. So, if you are going to start worrying about run-out you will have to make sure your case necks are uniform.
If you want to know if any of this will make any difference in your rifle just mark the high spots on a few rounds and shoot a few groups with the cases indexed.
C.G.B.

I broke down and bought a Sinclair runout gauge off of ebay and what it told me scared me enough to go out and buy new dies for two calibers and a forster co-ax press. The accuracy of my loads in several rifles has improved considerably since I started using the gauge and chased down the problem areas. If your ammo is already straight then great, you don't need one. However, you won't know if it's straight or not until you measure the rounds. In my case it solved a lot of headaches with a couple of rifles that had been giving me fits. Well worth the money to me.

I use a runout gauge to measure and try to minimize runout on my loaded rounds. I divide them into rounds over 0.005" and those less. I'm happier if there's a lot more of the latter than of the former. Then, I use the ones over 5 for fouling shots and practice, and the ones less than 5 for hunting. Does it truly make a difference? Probably not, but it gives me more confidence in the field, and it makes me feel all better.

quote:

Originally posted by boltman:
However, you won't know if it's straight or not until you measure the rounds.

Wrong! you learn that it's straight or not by firing the stuff. It seems to be a bizarre idea to some but everything is hypothetical until the rubber meets the road. And to really stir the pot, ALL ammo lies crooked in the chamber!!!
If it didn't, you wouldn't be able to chamber the stuff. And the act of firing the ammo is not a gentle push of the bullet down the bore. Things start out with a violent explosion and the metal of the rifle and the barrel twist and distorts. The bullet case is slammed against the chamber walls and the bullet is rammed down the bore which tries to unwind. So your .003" off, when it's put in the chamber does the cant help you or are you really more like .010" off? So now we need a thingie that puts a witness mark on the case and a special bolt that doesn't rotate the ammo as it comes into battery.

Im glad we all make up our own mind for what works or doesn't

I'll use my system and lose no sleep

I agree with wasbeeman and MMM, damned few hunters devote anywhere near enough time to practice, including dry firing. For the life of me, I cannot convince my hunting buddies to do so. I do practice, though not as much as I should. My shooting is not improving, but at 70 I'm just glad that it isn't getting any worse. That said, there's no reason not to practice AND build good ammo.

Today I began processing some brass for a friend. I talked him into buying some Lapua for his 30-06 for a trip to Namibia 4 years ago. The brass he gave me yesterday was a mix of Lapua, R-P and WW in the same MTM boxes in which I delivered his custom crafted loads. I ran them over my gauge before neck sizing and saw <.002". After neck-sizing, with a RCBS dies, they were .003-.004. Hmmm?

Incidentally, he wounded and lost a very nice gemsbok and was very upset that he had to pay the trophy fee. Unfortunately it did not inspire him to practice his shooting. And yes, mediocre ammo would have had the same result.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I've never used a set of Redding dies. And without the supposed advantage of a runout thingie, I loaded ammo that was good enough to win back to back WV state championships.
I might want to add that I was using a Forster set of dies and a LEE press. You folks that think you can buy your way into the winner's circle, make me smile.
If you want to check run-out, weigh cases, weigh bullets, uniform flash holes, bevel the inside of the flash hole, neck turn, cut little logs of 4350 in half to get a precise load, and do any and all sorts of busy work, go for it. If it makes you happy, never let it be said that I interfered with your joy. But if you're loading for a hunting rifle, your time would be better spent practicing dry firing using bench techniques AND field position shooting . And when you're accually live firing, be sure and practice your field position shooting.

Some of the truest words I have ever read on the internet.

+1
F A Skippy!

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I've never found a use for a runout gauge....just rolling the ammo on a flat surface will quickly tell you if there's a problem

Ive been a machinist/toolmaker for going on 30 years.....you got bettet eyes than me if you can see .005 TIR on a table

Maybe you should see an optometrist?

To reduce runout I start the bullet then rotate the case 180 and then finish seating it.

quote:

Originally posted by Leo L.:
To reduce runout I start the bullet then rotate the case 180 and then finish seating it.

You know Leo, I did that for years and finally I made a special test to see if there was a difference between turned cartridges and ones that had the bullet seated in one stroke of the handle. I could not find a difference. The test were actual firing test, not run outs. YMMV