or why, exactly, can't I get this rifle to shoot. I won't get into details, but I've tried everything: bedding, re-stocked, dozens of loads, trigger, pressure points, recrowning, new LeoII. I know I could have just unloaded the rifle but it turned into some kind of personal quest--to find the THING causing this rifle to shoot, at its best, 2.5" "groups". I can understand the theory behind accuracy: consistancy. Brass and load, same. Barrel time, same. Barrel harmonics, same. Action movement within stock, minimal and same. Etc. But what I cannot get figured out is what variable am I failing to control for? It is hard for me to understand what quirk in the construction of the rifle would react to cartridge ignition differently every time assuming that your components and shooting are consistant. I shoot fairly well and am fortunate enough to own several bughole guns; its the rifle. Anyway, if anyone out there is still conscious after all this whine, can you explain why some rifles simply won't shoot? It's a W70 Classic '06, nothing fancy. Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide (and offers of deals on barrels, I think I give up.)

[ 02-13-2003, 08:21: Message edited by: snowcat ]

Have you slugged your bore? Maybe it's a bit oversize and/or has some constrictions. If your barrel has any constrictions it may need to be lapped.

[ 02-13-2003, 08:53: Message edited by: pondercat ]

Snowcat,

You are in hell, and we've all been there. Since your beyond the point where it made sense to cut your lossess, do you risk the $$ for a new barrel? I dunno. Could very well be pouring good money after bad... For me, I learned that it's my TIME screwing around with all those load combos that isn't worth it...

Good luck, let us know. You'll get lots of advice here...

[ 02-13-2003, 09:19: Message edited by: rogerinneb ]

Sounds like you have checked everything common... rubs, loose screws, etc. One kind of ugly possibility: The rifle has been fired with a raindrop or two in the barrel. Since water is highly incompressible, and has a hard time getting out of the way at Mach 2.5, it can kinda locally resize the barrel slightly. That might make it erratic.

I've suffered the same syndrome, and I've always wondered if sometimes a barrel has inconsistent steel throughout it's length. That might cause it to warp first one way, and then another, as the temperature increases along the taper from breech to muzzle. I doubt there woul be any cure, other than a new barrel, but it might explain the phenomenon. I've even seen a barrel (on a 700 Remington) that was visibly bored off center. The stringing was spectacular.

There are several 'smiths that specialize in analyzing "problem" rifles like this...go to www.azammo.com and take a look at their diagnostic services...not cheap but ?????

I went through the same ordeal with my Win 70 in .338 Win Mag. The only remaining un-doctored part being the factory barrel, I replaced it with a Lothar Walther and, voil� :

< MOA right from the first test-shoot.

Have you tried:

57.5 grains of H4350 (or IMR 4350, same amount in this case), and a 165 grain bullet?

If you haven't, it's worth a try here...

Have you checked to see that the bolt lugs are bearing evenly? Look at this link:http://www.serveroptions.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=006901

Thirdly, I would consider having the barrel shortened by 1/2", and recrowned. That will give the barrel a totally different harmonic, a new crown, and 1/2" of barrel length won't bother your velocity.

First, try the 57.5 grain 4350/165 grain bullet recipe. If your 30-06 won't put that recipe into MOA groups, the rifle definitely has a problem.

Keep us informed...

Dan

Are we sure this is a gun issue? I did not see any mention of optics in your original post. Is this thing scoped? If it is that opens up a whole new area of improvement. I do not mean to question your abilities, however has anyone else shot this gun? If so, what were their results? Are you shooting the gun off a solid rest, or free hand? Once again, I'm just trying to get a base for what you are dealing with, don't want to assume anything.

I bought a used Winchester pre 64 model 70 in 30-06 in 1968 to hunt deer. never could do better than 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards with my reloads using a 150, 165 grain bullet. I harvested many fine bucks with that rifle then retired it for a new more accurate rifle. I tired several powders and bullets available at that time. The bore was rough and always had copper fouling to be removed. I have made no changes to the rifle to keep it original since it is considered a collectable rifle. The pre 64 Winchester has never been noted as a tack driver, just a good reliable deer rifle and are highly sought after by collectors.

The rifle sat in my gun closet for 23 years. I decided to see if one of the new powders now on the market would produce better groups and tried H-414 with the 150 grain PSP bullet. I loaded ten rounds with 56 grains of H-414 powder Winchester brass, Federal primers, with a 150 grain psp bullet. The first three rounds I fired could be covered with a nickel. I waited one half hour to let the barrel get stone cold. Fired three more rounds and agian three rounds could be covered with a nickel. The last four rounds were fired two each into the two three shot groups and both groups could be covered by a quarter. I went home, loaded twenty rounds and put them both back in the gun safe knowing the old gal finally gave up her accuracy secret to me when it said I like H-414 powder.

My point is there are select few rifles that must be given the right powder, bullet, primer, brass, combination to give you it's best aacuracy. You may own one of those rifles and you also may have a bad barrel that will never produce better groups. A new barrel may be the answer to your rifles accuracy problem. The fact is your rifle will harvest any game animal out to 250 yards even with the group it is now giving you.

If the action isnt square (or threads for that matter) it will NEVER shoot well.
Just a thought.

One other thing I forgot to mention...

The screw in front of the trigger guard on the model 70's is supposed to be only "snugged" slightly. If you overtighten this screw on a Model 70, you'll put the action in a bind, and cause accuracy problems...

Dan

here's something real cheap to try: get some paste silver/metal polish from the grocery store. swab the bore real good with that stuff, let it dry a bit, then swab it out. this did wonders for a remington adl in .270. factory bore was tad rough, it turned out. i'd double check scope mounting process; make sure that scope tube ain't bent. it does not take much scope mount/ring misalignment to play hob with a scope, even the best ones. could be the mount(s) may need a shim. you might try a proven scope from elsewhere in your battery if the mounting process proves true. i feel your pain.

Warren Page's book, The Accurate Rifle, has been out of print for some time, I believe. There are copies to be found at used book shops. It is a good read and if it does not solve your problem, you should dump the rifle.

What have you tried with the bedding? What stock do you have? How have you tightened the guard screws?

Make sure that the guard screws are not touching the stock. Shoot it with just the front screw tight and the other screws loose.

It's easy to do a cheap "pillar bed" of the rear screw. Just cut an 06 case to make a tube. Drill (about .460") the rear guard hole bigger to take the sleeve and tighten the guard and action tight against it. A length of about 1.2" worked for mine. This sleeve floats in the enlarged hole.

Be carefull drilling a large hole like that in one shot into the existing stock hole that may only be 5/16" now. Use larger and larger drills removing a little wood at a time to prevent the large drill from walking.

The comment above that pre 64's don't shoot is wrong and that has been proven a half million times.

Has the muzzle crown been boogered up?

Elmo

common reasons why factory guns dont shoot after bedding and trigger work.Light weight barrels, or bad barrels. Replace the factory barrel or trade the gun.

the throat could be shot, the bore and rifling may not be concentric( cut rifling possibly) the bolt face could not be square, and well as the lugs not even in contact...clamp a wieght on the end of the barrel and try some of the better loads...( thinking harmonics and that would just give you something different to check it)....to let you know something...benchrest guys do all the latest tech stuff to have a gun built and if it dont shoot good with known reci[pies they just pull the barrel right away and do it all again with a new one....they know barrels come good bad and ugly!.......good luck...bob