POST REVISED:

I have succumbed to the collective wisdom here and will get a Dillon. But which one?

quote:

Post used to read:

I don't want to spring for a Dillon.

So other than Dillon, what would be the best progressive reloading outfit? Primarily .223, .45 and .38.

Dan the best handgun progressive loader I have ever used is the Star Machine Works.

They did make a 223 adapter but I never used one.

I think they are out of business now but you can sometimes find them used.

Check out www.starreloaders.com

They are a very good machine.

Well if you don't want to pop for a Dillon, you sure don't want a Star! I'm not a Lee guy but the Loadmaster gets good reviews from those that use them & about half the price of a 550B w/ autoindexing (you would need to move up to a Dillon 650 for that). Me, I would go for the Dillon 550B but that's JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I don't want to spring for a Dillon.

Dan, I felt the same way. Fortunately I had some knowledgeable friends who convinced me otherwise. Get the Dillon. I found a used machine and it fits the bill for me.

The Hornady Lock-N-Load AP is a great press for the money. They have been redesigned and the new model is a very good piece of equipment, although they get a bad rap because of the older ones that don't work very well. I have had mine for a year and it is great. I load 9MM, 40S&W, 357Mag, 45ACP, and 22-250 on mine and the conversion from small primers to large and vice-versa is pretty simple as is the conversion of the powder thrower changing from pistol to rifle. I had a little trouble when I first started loading with it as the priming system needed a little tweaking but now it never gives a hiccup.

The worst money you will ever spend is money you spend on equipment that isn't adequate to the task you bought it for.

This describes most progressive presses other than Dillon's. I was burned to the tune of several hundred dollars by an inadequate progressive press I would recommend that you learn from my mistake.

Better to spend a little more and get something that works is well supported and lasts. Buy a Dillon...................D

I offer the same sentiments. Buy a Dillon first rather than a machine that will frustrate you... To the point that you'll go buy a Dillon!

I was lucky enough to operate a relatives LEE and RCBS progressives before I bought a Dillon. Other than stating they aren't in the same league I'll keep my opinions to myself.

Yet another, don't mess around, just go for the Dillon. I went together with two buddies and bought a 550B years ago. It is the progressive equivalent to my RCBS Rockchucker single stage press that continues to work great after over 25 years of use/abuse. Dillon's customer service is right up there with RCBS, as well. Why waste time and money. Life is too short to load handgun ammo without a Dillon.

As many others have said get a Dillon. Even if you have to save for awhile. The Dillon is that much better.

muck

Just buy the blue one. Not once will you ever regret having spent a little more for it.

I had a Dillon 550 and found it to be a good
machine. Sold it to a friend when I wasn't
shooting much pistol.

I started shooting pistol again this year
and missed a progressive. I was thinking
about buying another Dillon, but then I saw
Hornady's add for 1000 free bullets if you
bought a Lock-N-Load AP. I decided to give
it a try. I like it better than the Dillon.
It is a great machine !!!!

Things I like better. It's smoother, auto-indexing, 5 station head, better engineered
primer feeder, better powder measure.

dxr

OK, the tide of public opinion is clearly in Dillon's favor.

So the next question is which one?

What advantages does the 650 offer over the 550?

And how about the Dillon 1050? Does it produce better quality ammo or is it easier to use, or just faster?

Calibers I would ultimately like to load for in a progressive:

9mm
38 spl
45 acp
.223 (match rounds)
.308 (match rounds)

I have a 550 for stuff I shoot some but not a huge amount, and a 1050 that I use for high volume stuff like IPSC and buzzguns (Super, 9mm, and .223).

The 550 is good for relatively low volume production runs. It caliber changes easily, but requires handling more of the components. The 1050 is great for high volume single caliber runs. It is frankly more a pain to caliber change ... especially to change the primer size.

The 650 is a really good balance of speed and caliber/primer change flexibility.

Cost is lower with the 550, high midrange with the 650 and high with the 1050.

I wish I had bought the 650 when I was making good money.

I would think that the reason to go with a 650 over the 550 is the automatic case feed. Figure the extra to buy the auto-case feed when you are pricing the 650. I bought my 650 without the auto case feeder and ended up ordering one within a week.
I think the Mstarling hit it right on the head, 550 for low/medium volumn, 650 for mid-range, and 1050 for high volume of specific calibers.

The Lock-and-Load may be a decent machine today, but I can't believe that they will be supported as well as a Dillon will be 10 years from now. Most of them run good at first but a good progressive is a long-term investment.....................DJ

dan - 1st off there is no better choice than dillon, i've had a 450 550 and 650 and the 650 is a hell of a lot faster and easier than the 550, it's just more money, but you guys with the deep pockets, that shouldn't bother a bit anyway the automatic stuff of the 650 is the case feeder, primer feeder shell plate index, etc. the shell plate index is automatic and speeds things up quite a bit. the primer feed is on the 550 but by the time you add the case feed etc. to the 550 you are ending up with just about as much $$ as the 650. The other thing is the 650 is a bit bigger and gives you more room to reach in when things foul up. Important thing for clubby handed guys like me. Progressives are great things, but it does take time to set them up every time you change a caliber. I use mine, but only when i have over 100-200 rounds to load. Until that time it takes long enuf to set up that i just run them through the coax instead. the other thing about them is that you really can't relax and load like you can on a single stage. you have to concentrate on each step going on every time you pull the handle, cause if one step screws up the whole operation screws up.

I've used my Dillon equipment hard for 25 years without complaint. My RL 450 refuses to die and the newer 550B with its changeable tool head is even better.
You will find that used Dillon equipment ain't cheap either, unless you score a deal on evilbay. Why so? Mike stands behind his equipment as well as his "no BS" waranty, thus their used equipment is every bit as good as new.

Dan,

Get the 650 and don't look back. It will crank out .223 and pistol ammunition at a prodigous rate.

The 550 is fine if you are only going to do a hundred or two hundred here or there.

If you decide to get the 550, let me know and I'll make you a very good deal on mine. I'm going to get another 650.

It depends on how much you need to load & what you want the press to do. The 550B is a manual index, manual component fed progressive. You can easily do 400rds of pistol ammo in an hour. Caliber changes are inexpensive & take about 5min.
The 650 w/ all the goodies, is a fully automated machine in that you dump in components & pull the handle. Getting 600+ rds./hour is easy. It's more complicated, costs more & takes longer to do caliber changes. It's auto indexing, so if you want to load small batches of ammo (testing or working up loads, etc.) or have a problem, it's a PITA. The 1050 is a smoother, more expensive, more complicated version of the 650. A great machine to leave setup for one caliber & just load 1000rds+/hr.
I started w/ a 550 so I have all of the caliber setups. Switching to a 650 would cost me an arm & leg for all the calibers I load for. I'm happy w/ 400rds/hr & the flexability of single or small batch loading the 550B offers. Your time & money, you decide.

I have a 650 set up for the 45 ACP with auto case feed. It works great. My son has his set up for 204 and 22 - 250. I prefer to load those in a regular press. The 650 operates very well.

Take a look here for a good overview of the Dillon presses. http://www.brianenos.com/pages/dillon.html#which
I have the 550, though the most I can load in an hour on it is more like 350 rounds, I still love it.

Hello,
Believe one could say the Dillon is a winner "hands down..." I have two 550B's and friends have the 650's etc., but if you have a hang up, case backwards, crooked, etc., it is a chore to straighten out compared to the 550B. Quality of loads is important for long range match shooters and have developed steps over the years to produce ammo which works quite well at extended ranges, beyond 600 yards. Service has never been a problem for many a year now and only broke one spring on the primer bar and no other problems. Have loaded many thousands of rounds.

Sounds like the 650 for volume, or the 550 for ease of use. Thank you.

One thing I did not see mentioned between the 550 and the 650. The cost of caliber change on the 650 is almost twice as much. I currently load for 35 calibers on a 550 and have had it since they sold new for 199 about 25 years ago. Best reloader I have ever owned and believe me I spent alot on different loaders before buying the 550. As mentioned in other posts caliber change and problems during loading are much easier corrected with the 550.

I love my 650, never tried a 550, so I'm prejudiced!

The 550 now has a case feeder available for it. That should make it closer to a 650 in speed/volume.

One thing to remember is that while all the other Dillons come with their "no BS" warrenty, the 1050 does NOT. Dillon considers the 1050 to be a commericial production machine, and as such dosn't offer the same "lifetime" warrenty as all the rest carry (industrial usage vs hobby usage kind of thing)
Not saying it's not as good a machine as their others, just pointing out a small detail.

when I buy another progressive machine I will get another 550 and leave it set up for small primers. Thats the biggest hastle when changing calibers. I used to shoot a bunch of 45 colt and a little 357 in handguns, since I bought the 550 I haven't shot or bought guns in any caliber other than 45. Just makes things easy. If you get a dillon get their dies, at least for handgun the radius on the fl size die is enough greater that it really smoths operation. The only drawback with the 550 is it's not impossible to double charge a case. hard but not impossible. I use only loads that fill half or more of the case. In 45 colt that means trail boss, 4227, and H110, for the three levels I load to. Good luck with your new machine!

500Grains - A couple of items which haven't been mentioned which are worth considering when comparing a 550 to a 650 are:

Speed of reloading has been discussed but not metioned is the fact that the various model numbers (550, 650, 1050) are also approximately the maximum number of loaded rounds per hour each model can be expected to produce. I load about 400 per hour on my 550 which is a comfortable speed for me.

Another difference between a 550 and 650 is the number of die stations available. The 550 has 4 stations, and the 650 has 5 stations. That's important only if you decide to use an additional die, such as a powder check die, and prefer to bullet seat and crimp in seperate operations (ie. if you actually need 5 stations).

Dillon, Lee and Hornady comparison.

The Hornady LnL AP does what the Dillon 650 does and then some at less money, it is a no brainer, get the Hornady.

Dillon Lee Hornady Comparison

I have had a Dillon 550 for a number of years and loaded well over 10,000 rounds on it. I really wished I had that fifth station, so I sold it and bought a Hornady LnL AP in 2005. I spent nearly 4 weeks, working evenings and Saturday afternoons, trying to set the thing up so it could load one box of rifle ammo without jamming, dropping primers, or hanging up.

One huge problem I had was run out. In some calibers, the rounds I loaded were visibly out of alignment. It turned out the shellplates for calibers other than the 30-06 case head, were not designed properly and were out of alignment with respect to the die head. Some were much worse than others, but most all were off to some degree. So, I sent all 19 shellplates back for replacement. Only the 30-06 shell head plate was ok, the rest were off by some degree.

So, two months later the shellplates returned, all of which were replaced. They also fixed the problem of the circumference spring breaking all the time, by changing the angle of the release at station 5 to allow a new case to slide into place. Actually, I only broke one spring, so it wasn't a big deal to me, but Hornady did say it was a common problem.

Another month went by, trying to set the thing up so it would not jam or spill primers all over the place. I found a new problem, the cases now slide out of alignment in station # 5. After many phone calls and trying new suggestions from their help desk, Hornady's final suggestion to me is to simply not use station # 5.

The other problem I had was the bullet would not stay in the mouth of the case while the press indexed, I had to hold it in place . This really slowed things up; I found I could load about 5 times as much ammo in an hour on the 550 than on this AP. On some bad days, I found I could load more ammo using my old Rock Chucker single stage press than fiddling on this thing.

The other problem is I had very little faith in the ammo I loaded. So, when I went on my safari to NZ, I used the Rock Chucker to load the ammo. This was also the first hunting trip I went on in which I did not use, or at least take, Hornady bullets. At that point, I pretty much gave up on Hornady for hunting and I am using the last of my stock, which is considerable unfortunately, for paper punching.

The case feeder would also jam for practically no reason at all. I wasted more primers trying to keep the primer feed from jamming, and I gave up trying to crimp heavy 44 mag loads. I crimped them on the RCBS rock chucker, one at a time. This really made me wonder why I had bothered to buy a progressive press.

Finally, I sent the entire package back to Hornady to check out the press and fix it. I listed all the problems I had and told them to keep it until they were all fixed. Unfortunately, Hornady told me the press works as designed and I simply had to hold the bullets in place, hold the case in place for station # 5, and still operate the handle. I guess they didn't realize I only have two hands.

Since they wouldn't fix the problems and pretty much told me to live with them, I could either get it back and wonder what to do with a red boat anchor, or sell it. The problem with selling it is some guy would buy it with all the problems and I didn't want to do that. Finally, I had them trade it for a 50 cal single stage press and I took a complete bath on the rest of it; not to mention all the freight I was out.

It sure gave me a bad taste for reloading. This is the first time since I started reloading at 16 that I came across a bad experience from a reloading company. What really got to me was not the problems I had, but the lack of interest or concern from Hornady regarding all the problems in the press. It is a clear case of "it's the way it is and we aren't going to bother to change it, so live with it." I can understand some reasons for not fixing the press, but if they aren't going to fix it, at least buy it back. They wouldn't do that, I could trade it for bullets at retail, however. After looking at mail order prices for bullets, that isn't a real solution.

I finally wrote up all of these problems in a detailed letter to Steve Hornady and mailed it off to him, but I never got a reply.

The guy who bought my old Dillon 550 still teases me about this. Granted the 650 is a lot more money, heck even the 550 is more money, but at least they work consistently and I had very good faith in the ammo I loaded on it. Given the time I wrapped up in the Hornady AP and the little ammo I loaded on it, I could have been more efficient using the rock chucker, not to mention the 550 Dillon. I really believe if I had traded minute for minute on the AP for reloading time on the 550, I could have loaded enough rifle ammo to last the rest of my life. Perhaps not pistol ammo, but certainly rifle ammo, and I do shoot more rifle than pistol these days.

By the way, Hornady does NOT have a lifetime warranty on their AP - it is only three years. Actually, they started to balk about me sending it back after I fiddled with it for several months.

Personally, with demise of their bonded bullets and the lack of quality engineering in this press, I am begining to think Hornady is starting to skate by on their quality reputation rather than on the quality of their products.

In my opinion, if you have an AP which works, you are lucky. If you don't have one, don't buy one. My suggestion is if you want a progresive, buy a Dillon, any model is fine. There is indeed a good reason why Hornady doesn't advertise the number of rounds you can load in one hour in the manner Dillon states in their ads. The reason is, the AP can't possibly come close to doing it.

RobertD

I started out with a Dillon 450. Dillon upgraded my 450 to a 450B witout charge. I upgraded to two 550s one with large primers and one with small primers. I then bought a 1050 and up graded it with a Fowler Bullet feeder and a MA Systems collator. I can load 3600 rouds per hour with the 1050. I bought a second 1050 to leave one set up for large primers and one set up for small primmers. I put a Howell CNC Collator and a Fowler Bullet feeder on the second 1050. I can now load .223 and .308s at 3600 per hour. I have replaced the Dillon Powder measures with other makers powder measures. I have a Hornaday drum type powder measure on one and a Quick measure on another.

Very pleased, with Dillon as over the years they have replaced several parts that have worn out over the last 26 years and approximate 2.5 million rounds loaded. I have litterally worn out several sets of carbide 9mm, .38, .357, .45, .223, .243, and .308 dies.

Dillon has never asked for a part to be returned or questioned my request.

There are things about a Dillon loader that I think could and should be made better but their warranty is not one of them.

Longshot

Me experiences with the Lock-n-load AP mirror those of RobertD's. In fact, I gave up on using mine as a progressive altogether. I use it as a Turret press. I too, gave up on using the primer feed. Instead, I prime my cases with the Lee auto prime. I size and bell the case mouths on the lock-n-load, then drop charges with my RCBS measure(the lock-n-load powder measure has thrown charges between 7-15 grs. before) Then its back to the press, where I seat the bullets and crimp with a Lee factory crimp die. I don't know why I bother with this, as I could probably load at the same rate with my Rockchucker. As Robert mentioned, it does make one hell of a boat anchor

Molar1: I had two of the Hornady LnL measures. The older one, the one with the plastic pins in the hopper, works fine and I haven't had a problem with it. The onther one, the newer one without the pins, threw charges similar to yours. It turned out to be static causing the problem, although Hornady swears nothing changed other than the removal of the pins.

I was going to try grounding it to earth, but I gave up on the Hornady system before I got that far. You might try that, tie a copper wire to the earth prong on your nearest power outlet or cold water pipe.

By the way, the measure without the pins, had a problem of the hopper falling off and spilling powder all over the place. Another reason why I gave up on that powder measure.

You could donate it to charity, write off your expenses, and then buy something that does work such as a Dillon. I'll probably look for another one here before long.

RobertD

Thank you for the reports on Hornady. Negative reports are at least as valuable as positive ones, and I did consider Hornady. Fortunately I did not go down that road.

I've owned just about everybody's at one time or another . Stick with the Dillon !!. You'll never be sorry , I got a 550 it has served me extremely well for I can't even remember how many years now . It broke a couple of small things like primer anvil plunger , spring & primer slide wore out !.
I called Dillon they sent me the parts at NO CHARGE !. Kind of like RCBS . I had a set of dies that for some dam reason stuck two cases . In all fairness I owned those dies for 34 years !. It only stuck two in all of those years right at the end . I sent them to RCBS asking them to look at em , they sent me a Brand New Set NO CHARGE !. I like those people !. I always buy their stuff . Not because they send me freebies because it WORKS !. If it doesn't they make it right !. I have no idea how many rounds I loaded over all this time !. I would have expected to purchase new anything after a couple of years , well I'm still buying different caliber dies . Guess which brand I'm buying !. Loader , Stick with a Dillon ,they're real good folks !!!!!!!...

I have a 1050 setup for pistol only, and a Super 1050 setup for rifle only. Buy a 1050 and never look back.

flutedchamber, I've heard said that changing caliber on the 1050 can take upwards of 30 minutes or more, have you found this to be the case?

I left you a PM.

Get the 650, you will love it.

quote:

Originally posted by micdis:
flutedchamber, I've heard said that changing caliber on the 1050 can take upwards of 30 minutes or more, have you found this to be the case?

It would probably take almost 30 minutes to change calibers if you had to change dies. I have bought toolheads on Ebay and keep my popular calibers set up in their own toolheads. I also took a compartmented plastic box and arranged each caliber change in it's own bin. I also made up a caliber change sheet that lists shell plate number, locater pin numbers, powder funnels, case guides for the case feeder, etc. With the dies set up in a toolhead, it takes only about 15 minutes to do a complete caliber change.

One more point about the 1050's. I bought a 650 just before Dillon came out with the Super 1050. The reason being that the standard 1050 couldn't do many rifle calibers, but it does have the primer pocket swage which comes in handy with any military brass and some types of regular brass with a sharp edge on the primer pocket. You can easily disable the primer pocket swage if you want.

I sold the 650 two years later on Ebay, unused in the original box for $100.00 more than I paid for it.

The Super 1050 does cost more than the 650, but it is a much heavier duty press with a higher cyclic rate that is easier and smoother to operate, plus the primer pocket swage option.

If you are just going to load pistol and perhaps 30 carbine or .223, go with the 650. The 1050 can resize 30-06 brass that was fired in a BAR with not much effort. How long will the aluminum under the shell plate in the 650 stand up to that type of stress? I destroyed a Hornady Projector in one year resizing the 30-06 brass. It actually wore out the shaft that turned the shell plate - and the Hornady was all iron and steel.

Thanks flutedchamber, 15 minutes isn't too bad at all. 95% off all the centerfire rounds I shoot are 45 colt and i've toyed with the idea of buying the 1050 for handgun rounds and using my 550 for rifle. May be time to seriously consider the 1050.