Rather than resizing a case neck to friction hold a bullet, you can secure a bullet into the case neck using a thin cloth or paper patch. Obviously not good enough to withstand rough handling before chambering and firing, but in a pinch, if you had no dies or press around, seems this could work as long as you carefully chamber and fire individual rounds. An advantage(?) would be no possible damage or distortion to bullet, not to mention no working of the brass. Heck, maybe even a small amount of some suitable adhesive on the patch could allow rough handling or use in semi-autos.

Has anyone ever tried this or read of such? What were the results in terms of effect on velocity or accuracy?

I believe this was a common practice in the 1800's.......

[ 02-13-2003, 20:14: Message edited by: ricciardelli ]

What are you talking about? They didn't have brass cases then for your information. If you can't post a serious response to my question, please don't.

Benchrest shooters in the past have done this, and many probably still do. They don't use the paper or cloth, but with the brass and chamber properly mated, a bullet is placed in the brass, chambered and the rifling "seats" the bullet. It's a slightly different technique for reloading. There is no resistance for the bullet except the rifling. Different grips on the bullet do affect accuracy and the load. While the only thing I've tried is checking accuracy for the same loads using different grips, I imagine that the propellant charge would have to be altered and played with a bit to resume normal accuracy with a particular load. My experiment was with the same charge using grips from .001" up to .005". With the same load in my case I found that the lighter grips produced the best accuracy. In the only load on which I tried it, .002" grip seemed to be the best of all worlds. Grips beyond .003" produced the worst accuracy but there wasn't any difference to speak of for the greatest grip. It goes without saying that at least for the load on which I experimented, maybe NO constriction by the brass might have been most accurate.

Thanks Bob338 - I am familiar with the BR technique you mention - is called a "tight neck" chamber, however new bullet is actually seated into the case neck using a seating die BEFORE chambering (not seated during chambering which isn't practical or possible). I, of course, am speaking of standard brass used in a standard chamber. Thanks for the input. I'm really hoping to hear from someone who has actually tried this technique or read of someone who has. Maybe somebody will try it and let us know.

[ 02-13-2003, 07:24: Message edited by: sonofagun ]

I've done it with cast bullets in a 45-70. Didn't use paper though. Just pushed the bullets in the case.

OK, thanks Steve - but you said the 1700s. That's nice that they did this back in the 1800s, but I'm interested in TODAY'S cartridges and guns. I hope to see more interest in and response to this topic - of course, it could put the die makers out o' business!

OK, wondering why there's not more response to this. If this has been discussed previously (here or elsewhere), would appreciate someone letting me know where & when. Thanks.

Try Paul Matthews, " The Paper Patched Bullet", and Shooters Talk cast bullet room archives. Lots of info.

I'll make this clear(er):

I'M TALKING ABOUT MODERN CASES, JACKETED BULLETS, AND GUNS (LIKE .308, 30/06, ETC.)!!

R.S.V.P.

sonofagun,

It really doesn't matter what cartridge you're talking about. Many "modern" cartridges really had their start over 100 years ago, in the 1800s (like 1894). It is the principle and whether or not it is applicable for the cartridges you're shooting.

Adhesive, i.e. glue, is not advisable. Efforts to use sealants in ammunition which later had a glue like effect resulted in inconsistent pressures at the least and catastrophic failure at worst.

As suggested read books and articles on paper patching bullets. Most will deal with cartridges used/developed in the 1870-1890s but that doesn't matter, the principles apply to any cartridge.

Oh, and if you ask for advice (free at that) please be so kind as to accept it with good grace even if it isn't the answer you wanted to hear.

Seyfried did an article about paper patching in Handloader in the not too distant past. I read it because it was interesting, but it's not something I'll ever get into so I didn't pay attention that well. You might try looking at Handloaders webite to start.

I think that the paper patch was intended to emulate a "jacket" of sorts, to let the bullet centralize itself in the bore more evenly, and engage the rifleing.

I don't see the advantage with using it for jacketed bullets as an alternative to neck sizing, as it would probably be alot easier to just size brass rather than wrap a bullet in paper.

If this isn't what you are talking about, then I am completely at a loss as to what you are talking about.

IF... you are going to paper patch a "modern" caliber... then you are going to have to use undersized bullets.

Add paper to, say a 0.308 diameter modern bullet and you no longer have a 308... likely it willl be .311 (or more).

That being the case... you are going to be dealing with pressure levels possibly beyond those which are safe.

Yeah, that too....

Here's what I'm saying (an example) -

You're at your bench, shooting a modern centerfire bolt gun, and reloading at an adjacent bench. You are loading and firing single rounds. Now rather than resizing a fired case, you simply reprime it, add powder, and then place a, say, 3/4" square of thin paper ( a piece of paper towel seems to work) or cloth over the case mouth, and then seat a bullet into the case. You next carefully hand chamber the round, fire and repeat the process with all the cases and rounds you're firing. What will be the result in terms of velocity and accuracy compared to conventionally loaded (sized) rounds?

There's no way I can see this would cause dangerous pressures nor any fouling or barrel problems - the paper would harmlessly be destroyed in firing and/or be blown out the muzzle.

As an alternative to paper, one could probably find a suitable, simple adhesive/glue type substance which you would lightly apply to the bullet and then seat it in the case mouth. The "glue" chemistry would be chosen to be harmless and completely eliminated upon firing.

Remember, two advantages to this would be no possible deformation of the bullet before firing and no working of the brass.

[ 02-15-2003, 05:09: Message edited by: sonofagun ]

Tried to tell you that benchrest shooters used to do this without seaters and without the paper. If anything it's likely to lower the pressure and your velocity. It's not dangerous, it just alters the pressure curve somewhat because of diminished initial resistance. You'd probably have to add a bit of propellant, if anything, to reach the same velocity. To a degree I've done it with a 223 Contender barrel. The Speer TNT bullets only allow about .020" of seating. I changed the neck bushing in the sizer to give a loose push fit, placed it in the chamber with the muzzle pointed up, close the action and shoot. Velocity was slightly lowered from the same load with bullets seated tightly but I have no way of knowing if that was as result of a larger powder chamber or the lack of neck resistance on the bullet. You might try it with a dab of rubberized paper cement to hold the bullet while you chamber it in a rifle. It's sure not going to hurt anything and it will satisfy your curiosity.

Thanks Bob,

I'd still like to hear the chronographed and "papered" results of using this technique. I hear what you're saying about reduced pressure but perhaps the advantages of no bullet distortion and increased brass life might make up for it. Perhaps a faster powder could be used. Can't test this myself - can't shoot.

Think about it - it would be reloading without dies! Almost unlimited case life! Perhaps greater accuracy?

I'm just hoping someone will give this a good test or can direct me to an article or report on same.

Well, I've just posted this question over at Benchrest Central - I'll see what I find out there.

[ 02-15-2003, 21:53: Message edited by: sonofagun ]

This may not be of any use to you but I shoot paper patch and by heavenly blessing my dies and chamber match very well. I routinely put bullets in place with finger pressure, and do not size after each firing. I use a seat die for consistancy not from necessity. I use a taper crimp only because my rifle has a magazine. >>>>Stainless-Synthetic, Ruger 77/44 w/red dot sight. 300 Gr at 1530 fps- 1MOA<<< That new enough? Accurate enough? What you propose is simple and it's not that new. It will do what you suggest but I'd avoid any type of glue. Instead, use thicker paper in the form of an "x" under the bullet base. 11* Chamfer might help too.

This might interest you check this out

http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/arelo.htm#Fitted_Necks

Never heard of this being done, but once you have some results let us know about it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sonofagun:
[QB]Thanks Bob,
Can't test this myself - can't shoot.

That is a SHAME

[ 02-21-2003, 05:30: Message edited by: sonofagun ]