Never heard of the ladder method till the other day on here but it made sense to me.
So I loaded up 8 rounds for my newest addition and went to the range today.

30-06 with 180 grain interlocks and IMR 4350 powder start weight 53 grains and 1/2 grain increments to max of 56.5.

55.5 and 56 grain loads shot less than an inch from each other. All other shots were at least 3 inches from the nearest load. The whole group was a foot tall and 6 inch wide except for one I think was a flier that was farther right than the rest. I can see where 54, 54.5 and 55 could have been a cluster if I pulled 54.5 and 55 because they were in line with 54 grains but 54.5 was 5 inches right and 55 was 6 inch low of the 54 grain load.

This was not the best gun to try this for the first time as it is a 760 Gamemaster built in 1952 with an old Weaver v7 scope. But I know the rifle has potential from the first outing at 100 yards.

Were you shooting the ladder at 100? If so that is usually too close.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Were you shooting the ladder at 100? If so that is usually too close.

No 300 yards.

quote:

No 300 yards.

Please explain how this is supposed to work?

What's the method, and reason?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Please explain how this is supposed to work?

What's the method, and reason?

KB

I am a bad one to explain it. The idea is you pick a powder and bullet but instead of loading several of each powder charge and shooting for best group you load one round each with 1/2 grain increments.

Shot at 300 yards the ones that group closest are the ones that you should work on as they are in the harmonic balance of your barrel.

I am sure someone can do a better job explaining it. I am giving the simple explanation.

Thanks for posting that!!!!!!

That was a prety interesting article. I'll have to go back and read it again, and think about it. My first impression was that it's a bit complicated.

I might be able to benefit from it, but the way I see it is that first I have to get comfortable shooting load development beyond 100 yds. That's going to take some transition.

As he described the first step, finding the max load for a certain combo, in a given rifle, is something I do routinely. I simpley pull the bullets from loads that are among those initial tests, and found to be over max.

Frankly, I'm not developing competition loads, so I take as many short cuts as I'm comfortable with. For example, I skip the cronograph, initially. Usually I don't start right at the book starting load either. Also, initially, I seldom load in smaller increments that 1 gr increase, but I don't load cases smaller than 308 either. I usually load three of each charge, increasing by 1 gr, up to the book max. As another short cut, often I don't even bother loading the top book load, but stop a grain or two less. And if I do load up to book max, often I don't shoot the book max loads, because I find the max for that rifle to be less. I record it all in my log notes. I have several rifles that I'm not sure what the max safe load really is for them, because I just stopped increasing powder when accuracy decreased noticably.

I also shoot for accuracy, at 100 yds. Generally what happens is the most accurate load is somewhere near the top, but not book max.

Then I go back and fine tune a load that shows promise, and then I drag out the cronograph, and look for the least velocity spread. The results usually all come together as evidence on paper, with small groups.

It's usually not difficult, and I can predict the most likely to succeed powder. Usually, Sierra bullets make small groups, so it's just a question of weight. Once I find an accurate load, then I may experiment with other powders, and bullets. But I have a reference point of the proven load, and don't let discouraging results cause me to think it's the rifle.

Sometimes it becomes more of a challange, say if I wanted a particular bullet to work in a certain rifle. For example, say I just had to have the 250gr Barnes work in my 9.3x62. It could work with my first load dev attempt, but it could also take some experimenting with different powders, and perhaps primers. Seating depth for that bullet would be the last thing to experiment with. Initially, I would seat them all to the cannelure. So far there has been no need to seat differently, but I would do so only to see if it helped on an already pretty good load, but not yet quite good enough. That's part of the point - it's a hunting rifle, and I doubt that seating depth, other than to the cannelure, would help anything, especially in a CIP chamber. The times I did try seating bullets out long, it hasn't helped, and in the cases I remember, it actually made for very poor results, so I generally avoid it. I mess with seating depth only on those chambers that have short throats, and then I just make sure the bullet isn't jammed against the lands.

There are those exceptions, with more difficult rifles, which require a different strategy. However, with difficult rifles, it seems to me that the ladder tests described would be a problem. Seems to me like one has to be dealing with a pretty accurate rifle and ammo to start with, to gain any knowledge from 300 yd targets.

I dunno. Maybe it is difficult to teach an old dog new tricks.

KB

I stumbled across this method, which I am currently trying. I like it.
Optimal Charge Weight

quote:

I can see where 54, 54.5 and 55 could have been a cluster if I pulled 54.5 and 55 because they were in line with 54 grains but 54.5 was 5 inches right and 55 was 6 inch low of the 54 grain load.

I suspect that for a ladder to be valid it probably needs to be repeatable and especially if the firearm used is not a real fine shooter.

I know that a few Rem pumps are extremely accurate but mine wasn't and the way I read you comments about the ladder it seems this forst attempt may be more coincidence than reality.

I heartily suggest you repeat it a few times to see if the same pattern emerges.

I have used my version of the ladder for years in working up loads for my target rifles, but I have always done it at 100 yards, where I can clearly see each bullet hole in my spotting scope and plot them on a diagram I keep next to me on the bench.

How can you distinguish which shot went where at 300 yards? Even my 100 mm Unertl team scope will not reliably distinguish bullet holes at that range.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
I stumbled across this method, which I am currently trying. I like it.
Optimal Charge Weight

Thanks for that link. I saved it on my favorites, under the guns and reloading. It describes generally what I have been doing. I'm going to read it again to refine my methods, and as a refresher course.

I agre with xausa, that I'm not going out to 300 yds with a ladder. I like to see the holes with my spoting scope, and the three shot method works, and doesn't waste time and ammo.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
I have used my version of the ladder for years in working up loads for my target rifles, but I have always done it at 100 yards, where I can clearly see each bullet hole in my spotting scope and plot them on a diagram I keep next to me on the bench.

How can you distinguish which shot went where at 300 yards? Even my 100 mm Unertl team scope will not reliably distinguish bullet holes at that range.

My 18 power Nikon did fine and I made my target on card board with masking tape as grids. Then made a paper grid to record hits on.

You load up a ladder for a couple of my varmint and target rifles and all's you get at 100 yards is one ragged hole. You'd have nothing to plot.

Actually to shoot a ladder, it is not obligatory that you shoot at any particular distance but you do want it far enough to be able to plot the hits and see the clusters.

100yd ladder cannot be expected to reliably print a useful test. Maybe...but not always. The further, the better. If you shoot at 300 and cannot "see" or "watch" your progress, that's not all that crucial. If you start with your lowest powder charge and continue up in charge weights, the natural progression upwards in charges will produce a likewise upwards progression in bullet holes when you go fetch your target. You'll be able to "read" your ladder in just the same order that they were shot. If you've started with 1/2gr intervals, the ladder will get you closer to narrowing the charge to a more useful number. Then shoot another ladder in that load area that produced the best reading only now just vary the loads by say 2/10s grain, and so on. Also, when you start, I find it more useful to shoot several at each charge weight so you'll see your ladder print as "two by two" helping to eliminate so called flyer readings. At 300yds the wind may affect your left/right a bit so don't be too concerned with the horizontal. The 100yd ragged hole theory is quite valid and may NEVER be of much help. I have shot ladders at 200yd with decent readable results. You can try that yardage and most everyone SHOULD be able to see a 200yd bullet hole with most scopes. Concentrate on a perfect POA and you should get good useful info for your best handloads. Good luck.
Bill