I'm working up a load for my 223. It shoots very well (1/2") with the cheap 45 gr Winchester HP factory ammo. I wanted to try to duplicate this load. It's out of stock at the moment in most areas.

I cant get Winchester bullets right now. A lot of 223 stuff is on back order. I have some 45 gr Sierra SP that Im going to try. I assume the factory load from Winchester uses Win 748 powder. My Speer reloading manual suggests magnum primers with this powder. I'd like to use winchester primers and no magnums are available right now. Has anyone used Win 748 with a standard primers in 223? Did you have any problems?

magnum primers are totally useless in a 223, you use them to ignite large amounts of slow burning powder, neither applies to 223

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magnum primers are totally useless in a 223, you use them to ignite large amounts of slow burning powder, neither applies to 223

I agree.

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I assume the factory load from Winchester uses Win 748 powder.

You know what they say about assuming?

Win 748 is a canister grade gunpowder meant for us handloaders. All of the hundred or so powders available to us is termed canister grade. Every container is supposed to be, more or less, uniform. It's probably blended from many lots.

Ammo manufacturers use non-canister grade gunpowder. One lot, or pile, or heap could be as different as night and day. They load by pressure, adjusting the amount of powder to yield a maximum average pressure that is under SAAMI max specs for the cartridge. Don't even assume that it's Winchester powder in that factory ammo of yours. It probably comes out of the Primex plant in St.Marks, Florida.

"Ball powder" is a registered trademark of Primex Technologies.

I had some problems with a Hodgdon powder (332 I think but Im not sure) a couple of years ago when it was very cold. The bullet stuck in the bore and the powder did not burn completely in my 223. I'm wondering if this is the same issue.

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Originally posted by Grumulkin:

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magnum primers are totally useless in a 223, you use them to ignite large amounts of slow burning powder, neither applies to 223

I agree.

me too!

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I assume the factory load from Winchester uses Win 748 powder.

This is a poor assumption! There is nothing to support this conclusion.

BL-C(2) is the powder I'd recommend.

I use 748 with either Win or CCI small rifle primers. I've never used a mag primer with these loads and have never had a problem - unless shooting too much is a problem.

Regular primers are just fine in .223 there is NO NEED for Magnum primers in that small capacity case !.

I also recommend BLC-2 or H335 as they work extremely well in My .223's . 52-68 grain bullets 15 shots a dime will cover and leave change at 100 yd !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

I have to disagree that magnum primers are useless in a 223. Using 27.0 of H335 mine shoots its best (groups and velocity) using CCI450 mag primers. Tried a couple of different standard primers and CCI BR primers, and none of the others did as well. Of course, your results may vary...

To organize and expand on what has been said...
.223 was the "brave, new, world" in .22's. Prior small rifle primer users, .25/20 for example (or .218 Bee), Hornet...--look at the list for yourself) worked at much lower pressures. .219 Donaldson was large rifle. Remington came out with the 7 1/2 primer to stand up to the 55K CUP of the new round. (.222 is only loaded in the 45K range usually). Is Rem. 7 1/2 a Magnum primer? Good question. It is a harder cup by all accounts for use with the higher pressures and calculated to use with a .223 case capacity and powders available at the time... Alledgedly ball powders are a bit harder to ignite.

Other brands? Common talk is regular primer with stick powders (IMR) and magnum with ball powders. Then they expand. Magnums for stick powders in really cold weather.

Best choice, try it and see what the gun likes. If you get better accuracy ... use it.

Following WW II Olin/Winchester was coming on big time with ball powders. Ball C was calculated around .308 (excuse me 7.62 x 51 NATO). It was changed and became Ball C Lot 2. Still made today. Worked O.K. in .223.

As said, "factory lot" powders may or MAY NOT be anywhere near the cannister standard. Pull a round apart and it looks like 748 (which Mr. Hodgdon supplied under other names, surplus) but might burn more like 760... DON'T ASSUME!

And when you are really "ready to experiment" you can buy surplus powders (cheap) and go from there...

Again, what does the gun like? Luck.

Anyone who really believes that magnum primers have no place in the 223 have never watched me screaming in frustration as cases primed with NON magnum primers
and charged with max loads of H335 (loads developed in July/august) loads produced 1/2" groups... well if you measure them width-wise.. because measured in the vertical the groups would run between 6" and 7" TALL.

yes H335 can be very accurate, but the first round from a cold barrel will shoot low and subsequent rounds will print higher depending on how warm the barrel gets and how long you let the cartridge sit in the warm chamber.

In REALLY cold conditions Simply holding a cartridge case in your hand to warm it up before quickly chambering and firing it can produce a change in POI relative to a case at ambient temp.

Of course I've had this experience with the temp
in the low teens...

And before half a dozen opinionate jerks say "I've never seen that" let me make this perfectly clear, I don't not give a malodorous lump of dung what you have or have not seen I have seen it and in my view of the universe my personal experience outweighs ANYTHING that some stranger has experienced.

To the original poster: Your Mileage may vary

Magnum primers are NOT necissary with MOST propellants in the 223Rem. I can also say that H335 isn't necissary either.
I no longer load H335 in varming rifle loads
I WILL load it for a friends Mini14 or my brother's H-bar, but ONLY with magnum caps.

the loads I developed for my bolt rifle are very consistant in the july sun, but utterly worthless for shooting something smaller than a 5gallon gerry can at 200yards.


My favorite propellants are Benchmark, RL7 and IMR4198

And though I have IMR3031 I've never loaded it in the 223.

Stick propellants are FAR easier to ignite than ball propellants, though not all extruded propellants are created equal. (RL22 in the 270win and 30-06 come to mind as loads that require magnum primers)

AD

When I tried CCI magnum primers in the .223, I got significantly POORER accuracy than what I was able to get with regular CCI primers. This was with Winchester 748 powder.

CCI 450 primers improved the accuracy with several of my H335 loads so when I started using W748, I just stuck with it since I had two bricks. Haven't tried the standard primers with the 748 yet since it shoots so well.

elkhunter,
one of my all time most accurate 223 loads uses w-748 standard small rifle primer and a 50grain v-max bullet. never ever had a problem. they cronoed 3460 fps at 14ft and shot into a 3/4 inch circle at 400 yds 1 hr. before dark. yes its true speer advises mag primers for some ball powder reloads, but ive used my non-mag primers thats all i had on hand.
regards

So I have to ask the question?

What cartridge are small rifle magnum primers manufactured to be used in? I have 1000 Federal #205 Magnum Small Rifle primers that I would like to shoot up.

Generally speaking Magnum primers insure a hotter ignition in COLD WEATHER they are again " Generally " used for larger capacity cases in which MORE powder or denser packing of said powder needs a COMPLETE BURN . Looking at Primer ignition photos in SS motion one can clearly see the " Flame Shape " as well as the ferocity of the burn , as well as extended burn in some different brands of primers .

I personally have never had ignition problems nor unspent powder in ANY of my .223 weapons .Be they bolt or semi auto regardless of powder used . I use Federal match or Winchester primers . I how ever have most everybody's primers . I simply prefer those two and my targets DON'T LIE .
Two weapons of the same manufacture and caliber doesn't mean they both will digest the same projectile and powder charge will equal accuracy .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...